Black holes question... Communicating with the outside

Outside the Schwarzschild radius, 1-2M/r >0, and t is time. However, inside the horizon, 1 - 2M /r <0, and the minus sign in the metric is in dr. This can be made precise to show that inside the horizon, at the point (t0, x0) your past is not t < t0. The past inside the horizon is r > r0. In the same way that for us time always increases, for someone inside the horizon distance to the singularity always decreases. The horizon is your past once you have crossed it. You can't go back not because there is some kind of physical barrier there, but for exactly the same reason that you cannot go back to yesterday now.

What about BHs without a singularity? Can they exist?

I remember reading that if you collected enough stars in a "small" space, you could get a BH with plenty space between the stars... This follows from the formula for the SR, which makes the volume grow faster than the mass. I suppose you could make a BH so big that the stars could have planetary systems around them...

Which leads me to some info I found while trying to "disprove" the big bang; that the mass of the visible universe makes a BH with a radius of about 17Gly, that is *larger* than the visible universe. I don't know if this is correct though, but if it is, we are LIVING within a black hole... And I don't know of anybody that claims we are all heading towards a singularity, unless there is a big crunch coming up, which seems unlikely at the moment.


Mosquito - curious, but lazy and not qualified to understand the math/physics involved
 
What about BHs without a singularity? Can they exist?

A precise definition of BH is very delicate. I was talking about the relatively simple spherically symmetric and uncharged case, where there is a single horizon and after pasing it you fall to the singularity.

Once you allow for charged BH, for example, there are two horizons (one inside the other). Once you cross the first one you must fall through the second, but after passing that one you are free to move inside it without falling into the singularity.

As for the universe being a BH, I don't have much time now. This is related to your question, but not quite it.
 
A precise definition of BH is very delicate. I was talking about the relatively simple spherically symmetric and uncharged case, where there is a single horizon and after pasing it you fall to the singularity.

Once you allow for charged BH, for example, there are two horizons (one inside the other). Once you cross the first one you must fall through the second, but after passing that one you are free to move inside it without falling into the singularity.

As for the universe being a BH, I don't have much time now. This is related to your question, but not quite it.

Ummmm... Okay.... Now you're talking over my head, which isn't all that difficult, I admit. I read the article though, and it basically comes to the conclusion that the universe may be a black hole, or a white hole, or both, or neither, who knows. Which made me remember that the source I found for my "big bang is a false theory"-theory also made similar claims.

Just to confuse things a bit more, aren't there also rotating black holes, with torus-shaped singularities that you can pass *through*? I seem to remember a SciAm or New Scientist article having some pretty drawings of this in an article discussing the feasibility of timetravel or somesuch.


Just got a wild idea: Could the event horizons be like 90 (180?) degree flips in space-time, so that you could have "universes" within black holes and depending on order, the dimensions get flipped around so that the time and space dimensions are not the same on both sides of the EH? This way our universe could be a white hole(ish thing) with the singularity in the past and expanding space and an eventhorizon within our universe could flip this so that inside it, the singularity became the future (or east?)?

Don't know how feasible that idea is, probably not much, otherwise somebody else would have pushed it hard by now ;)


Mosquito - not the brightest bulb in the chandelier
 
Just to confuse things a bit more, aren't there also rotating black holes, with torus-shaped singularities that you can pass *through*? I seem to remember a SciAm or New Scientist article having some pretty drawings of this in an article discussing the feasibility of timetravel or somesuch.

One problem is what exactly is meant by "black hole" or "singularity". At their most basic, all the different types are just possible solutions to relativity equations. This means that there is a big difference between what is theoretically possible to exist and what actually does exist or has been observed. While there are many different theoretical types of black holes, none of them have actually been observed. All we have evidence for is things that are very heavy and (relatively) small that are almost certainly some type of black hole. Actually determining what type of black hole an object is will require a lot more work, and of course theories are likely to change since we currently have very little data. Any discussion about the shape and properties of singularities are necessarily mathematical problems and not physics problems at the moment.

Just got a wild idea: Could the event horizons be like 90 (180?) degree flips in space-time, so that you could have "universes" within black holes and depending on order, the dimensions get flipped around so that the time and space dimensions are not the same on both sides of the EH? This way our universe could be a white hole(ish thing) with the singularity in the past and expanding space and an eventhorizon within our universe could flip this so that inside it, the singularity became the future (or east?)?

This is more or less what Yllanes has said. Once you cross the event horizon, the singularity becomes your future and the event horizon becomes your past. The problem with white holes is that as far as we know there is no such thing. Since most physics works exactly the same whether time runs forwards or backwards it is possible to simply reverse time in any equation and the result still makes sense. White holes are just time reversed black holes.

There are really three problems with them. The first is that they nothing has ever been observed that could even potentially be a white hole. While there is some evidence supporting black holes there is absolutely nothing for white holes. The second is that there is no known way a white hole could be created. A black hole is easy, escape velocity increases as mass increases, so given a finite speed of light there must be a certain density that does not allow light to escape. To acheive the same for a white hole requires either a local reversal of time or negative mass, neither of which have been observed and it is entirely possible that neither are even theoretically possible. The final problem is the issue of time reversal. Although there seems to be nothing that says time must run in one direction, it also seems that time does actually run in just one direction. We don't know enough yet, but it is possible that there is something that prevents time going backwards, in which case white holes would no longer be a valid solution in general relativity and so would not even exist mathematically, let alone physically.
 
Of course, as somebody else said, for an outside observer the time to reach the horizon is infinite, you never see anything crossing it.

This actually has interesting consequences about what the black hole is, if you think about it a little more. Consider that you throw a 10 tonne spaceship into a black hole (let's say supermassive, so that we needn't bother with tides) and watch it from the outside. As it approaches the event horizon, you will see it slow down, flatten, get red and dark, its transmissions will slow down ("... and now, I'm about to crooosss ttthheeee evvvvvvvvv....v...") to an apparent halt; its time will appear to freeze as the spaceship appears to get compressed into a flat cake slapped onto the existing black hole. (This is just how it appears to you who are far away; the traveller will actually be doing fine and won't notice any flattening.) You will wait and wait, but you'll see nothing more. The flattened spaceship will seem to hang just above the event horizon forever - or rather, so you'll figure, because eventually it will get so red-shifted and dark that you won't see it anymore. Disappointed, you leave. Another experimenter then comes and sees just a black hole, 10 tonnes heavier and a fraction of an inch larger than you first saw it. He'll never figure out that the outermost fraction of an inch is a spaceship hovering just above the black hole. Just as you didn't figure out that the last 3 km of the black hole that you saw was actually a star that had been falling towards the black hole some time before you came and had gotten stuck above the horizon, trying to fall into it.

Every single inch of the black hole's radius, all the way down to the central singularity, can be accounted for as some matter that had fallen into the black hole earlier and got frozen above the "previous" horizon. From the outside observer's point of view, the event horizon is packed full of matter rushing into the singularity, compressed, frozen and blackened from where you see it. In the center of the black hole, presumably there is the matter of the star that initially formed it, frozen in its collapse as it reached the apparent density c2/6Gr2. Classically, this is all there is; in the time of the outside observer, the singularity never formed, because the infalling matter never quite reached it and is frozen in its fall towards it forever.

The infalling observer's experience would presumably be different; he would finish his sentence, "... and now, I'm about to cross the event horizon - okay, you shouldn't be able to hear me now. It was me who ate your cookie, ha-ha!" From his point of view, the event horizon would recede from him as he falls further towards the singularity. He could even be allowed to hear some of the transmissions by someone who fell in just before him. But most of the matter that had fallen in earlier would always remain frozen ahead of him and he would never "hit" it. He would keep falling towards the shrinking (from his viewpoint) black hole, until it shrinks so much that the tidal forces will tear him to bits, and then his remnants would approach the singularity until the physical laws change so much that we can't predict what happens next.

Enter Hawking radiation. If Hawking's hypothesis is correct, black holes will eventually evaporate, so the infalling matter is not actually frozen in its fall forever. If he waits ridiculously long, even the outside observer will see the event horizon shrink - infalling matter will be allowed to fall beyond where the horizon used to be. Would this allow the infalling observer to transmit something outside? It might, or it might not; it depends on how the black hole information paradox is resolved. Classically, if black holes truly "have no hair", Hawking radiation could be truly random, information could be allowed to actually disappear from the universe and no transmissions will ever reach the outside observer. Or, as some suggest, Hawking radiation could be affected by information contents of the black hole, and an outside observer could theoretically be allowed to decipher the contents of the transmission from inside the black hole by carefully observing the radiation over time. Frankly, we don't know. All we can say so far is that from the outside observer's perspective, at some point during their fall into the singularity, the mass of the infalling observer's remnants is transformed into radiation and allowed to leave the black hole - ultimately, gravitational collapse results simply in 100% conversion of matter to radiation. What this implies about the experience of the infalling observer - whether perhaps his remnants are allowed to travel into their past as laws of physics break at the singularity, or something entirely different happens from his perspective - is not known. And to be really fair, we haven't even confirmed yet that Hawking radiation actually exists in the real universe. But theoretical physics is advancing, and if you wait for a few dozen years, there might be much better answers for you about what is going on inside black holes.

(Note: The above has been intentionally simplified for the sake of a layman reader.)
 
If I had a black hole available to me, I could run some tests :p but at best all we can do is speculate. Interesting phenomena and they were always the stuff of science fiction until recently.

Actually you do have a black hole available - we're in one!

I'm somewhat serious. The estimated mass of the visible universe is the same as the mass of a black hole the size of the visible universe!

Good luck with your experiments. :D

Cheers,
Ben
 
Actually you do have a black hole available - we're in one!

I'm somewhat serious. The estimated mass of the visible universe is the same as the mass of a black hole the size of the visible universe!

Good luck with your experiments. :D

Cheers,
Ben

I've heard that, too. That would be an easy way to explain why the universe has a finite volume, but no boundary. You would never be able to escape the confines of it.
 
Cuddles & Yllanes,

this is interesting, but I don't feel I have a lot to contribute here. This is a wee bit outside my actual knowledgebase. (read: I know bonkers about it, but have read a bit of popularized articles.)

I have a book that theorizes that black holes are baby universes and that they have "evolved to be near optimal in creating new black holes". My BH = dimensionally freaky mini-universe idea was a parasitic one on that, and what Yllanes said (or at least what I got from what Yllanes said).

Now I need to pretend to work a little, so that I can go home later and have a clear conscience while looking after the larvae :)

Mosquito - May the schwartz be with you all
 
Just to confuse things a bit more, aren't there also rotating black holes, with torus-shaped singularities that you can pass *through*? I seem to remember a SciAm or New Scientist article having some pretty drawings of this in an article discussing the feasibility of timetravel or somesuch.

Yes. Rotating black holes add another layer of complexity. Now inside the horizon you can have what are called closed timelike curves. This means that you can travel back in time and kill your grandfather, i.e., causality is broken. Thankfully, outside the horizon we are protected from such unpleasantness.

Just got a wild idea: Could the event horizons be like 90 (180?) degree flips in space-time, so that you could have "universes" within black holes and depending on order, the dimensions get flipped around so that the time and space dimensions are not the same on both sides of the EH? This way our universe could be a white hole(ish thing) with the singularity in the past and expanding space and an eventhorizon within our universe could flip this so that inside it, the singularity became the future (or east?)?

Your idea is more correct than you think, in a strict mathematical sense. For example, the analytical extension of Schwarzschild's spacetime has both a black hole and a white hole. It has two exteriors and two interiors, so to speak. And you can connect charged black holes to form a spacetime with lots of parts. But these solutions are for eternal black holes, black holes that have always been there. Your idea makes sense in this light. As I said before, inside the event horizon -r is time and t is space, for example.

To put it another way, once you cross the horizon the singularity is not at a particular point in space. It is everywhere at a particular instant in time.

However, I don't think it is very productive to talk about the inside of horizons here. For one, all of this is for eternal BH that have always been there. For astrophysical black holes (those formed through gravitational collapse), these solutions do not work for the interior, so thinks are not so 'simple'.
 
Quantum entanglement allows for communication between two particle instantaneously, not at the speed of light, therefore such a device should be able to defy the gravitational effects of the black hole. Stating the obvious such devices do not exist as of yet.:cool:

Nor can they exist. Quantum entanglement may be a form of superluminal "communication" between the wave functions of the entangled particles, but it is impossible to transmit information at superluminal velocities using quantum entanglement. You may be able to instantly collapse the distant wave function, but since you can't choose the state it collapses into, there's no way to send a message via that collapse, or for the other person to even know that you're the one who collapsed the wave function, and not their own measurement.
 
Now hold on just a cotton-pickin' minute here!

Long long ago, back when I was studying undergraduate physics, I was told that the Event Horizon (a.k.a. the Schwarzchild Radius) was the distance from the center of the black hole at which the escape velocity became equal to c. Farther out than the Schwarzchild Radius, the escape velocity is less than c; inside the Schwarzchild Radius, it's greater than c.

Outside the Schwarzchild radius, it makes sense to talk about escape velocities. Inside, it really doesn't make sense. Superluminal speeds are not physical, so assigning them to an escape velocity is pretty much meaningless.

But if that's the case, shouldn't a beam of light (or an object trravelling at nearly the speed of light) shot straight upward from just inside the Schwarzchild Radius be able to get a little ways up past the Radius before it loses all its energy?

This is not an unreasonable guess, but it's completely wrong. Once inside the event horizon, the singularity is your future. Space and time are so warped that anything going forwards in time, in ANY direction, is getting closer to the singularity. It is only possible to get farther away from the singularity by going backwards in time (going faster than light is equivalent to going backwards in time). And remember: the trajectory of a photon is independent of its energy, so you can't really talk about it "running out" of energy.

If you're up for a bit of geometry, look up Kruskal coordinates. They're a useful way of drawing the geometry of a black hole, since in these coordinates light cones are always at the same 45-degree angles, both inside and outside the event horizon. And you'll see on a graph of these coordinates that once inside, your future light cone hits the event horizon in all directions.
 
@Yllanes and 69dodge

I think my original confusion was due to taking the original scenario of a stationary object at the event horizon too seriously back in post 4. My objection to objects wasn't due to tidal forces, I understand how they can be low for large mass BH. My concern was how do the forces that hold an object together work as they cross the EH? As particles cross the boundary they would lose contact with the particles behind them. Thinking in terms of an object crossing the boundary "slowly" led to confusion. Thanks for the clarifications.
 
Did I misunderstand the coordinate system or did you mean to say "hits the singularity"?

Yes, that was what he meant, surely a typo. This is related to what I said. Far from the black hole, the light cones are as you have always seen them, limited by two lines at 45º to the horizontal. The past is what's inside the cone with t <0 and the future what's inside with t>0. As you get closer to the horizon (in the coordinates I used earlier to write ds2) the cones get narrower and narrower and in the limit they collapse into a single vertical line (you can define coordinates for which the cones are always 45º lines).

The interesting bit is that inside the horizon, the light cones are horizontal, i.e., past and future are right and left and not bottom and top. So any trajectory inside them hits the singularity (the whole t axis at r = 0). This is why I said that -r is time and t space inside the horizon.
 
Yes, that was what he meant, surely a typo. This is related to what I said. Far from the black hole, the light cones are as you have always seen them, limited by two lines at 45º to the horizontal. The past is what's inside the cone with t <0 and the future what's inside with t>0. As you get closer to the horizon (in the coordinates I used earlier to write ds2) the cones get narrower and narrower and in the limit they collapse into a single vertical line (you can define coordinates for which the cones are always 45º lines).

The interesting bit is that inside the horizon, the light cones are horizontal, i.e., past and future are right and left and not bottom and top. So any trajectory inside them hits the singularity (the whole t axis at r = 0). This is why I said that -r is time and t space inside the horizon.

All quite correct, using the Scharzchild coordinates. The reason I brought up Kruskal coordinates, however, is that unlike Scharzchild coordinates, the light cone doesn't change angle or flip direction at any point, a feature which I find to be extremely useful when trying to visualize what happens when crossing the event horizon. I'm sure you're aware of this, but for those less familiar with GR, both Schwarzchild and Kruskal coordinates describe the exact same thing - the difference is akin to using x-y-z versus polar coordinates to describe Euclidean space.
 
Thanks, I was mistaken in what is possible with an quantum entangled state, my knowledge of quantum theory is limited. Barring this impossible form of communication, I do not see how you could communicate out of a black hole.
 

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