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Free *beeep* Speech

Yeah, what's up Oliver? How can there be too much?


[patiently]


Because it's America.

America has not enough freedom of speech (as shown by the first posts) and too much free speech.

This is clearly true because it is American. You, being American, cannot grasp the subtle nuances at play here.
 
Because Oliver asked a question about the history of censorship in America.
But it's clear that Oliver thinks that Comedy Central was bleeping out the words because of some governmental law/regulation, and that is simply not the case.
 
But it's clear that Oliver thinks that Comedy Central was bleeping out the words because of some governmental law/regulation, and that is simply not the case.
The discussion had moved beyond the original point. At that moment we were talking about things more generally and Oliver was curious as to whether censorship was a recent phenomenon.
 
When I watch "The Daily Show" on Youtube, I have a hard time to understand what Jon Stewart actually meant whenever some nut jobs put a *beep* -sound in there every view seconds.
I don't ever have such a huge problem guessing which word is used, though I watch the streams on the Comedy Central site itself. The only word that is ever beeped is pretty well known and even if you do not know it, it should not be hard to figure out; rarely do they match the timing of the beep correctly so most of the time you hear "*beep*uck", with a caption across the screen that says "f$@k".
 
When I watch "The Daily Show" on Youtube, I have a hard time to understand what Jon Stewart actually meant whenever some nut jobs put a *beep* -sound in there every view seconds.

That's because he either says **** or **** all the time. Just don't say **** or **** and you'll do just fine, and you'll sound alot more intelligent. ;)
 
Free Speech And Other Myths

When I watch "The Daily Show" on Youtube, I have a hard time to understand what Jon Stewart actually meant whenever some nut jobs put a *beep* -sound in there every view seconds.

Since this bothers me a lot, I looked what this free speech myth is that everyone is talking about - and I found out it says this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So can I sue Comedy Central for some million bucks now for breaching the law or not? :confused:




I agree 100%

"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."

Oliver Wendel Holmes Jr. [8 March, 1841 – 6 March, 1935]

U.S. Supreme Court justice from 1902 to 1932

Too often the above statement is misquoted by omitting the word "falsely".



One might think that even in a democracy, that using speech that constitutes outright libel or slander or to incite a call to arms that leads to rioting and violence in the streets, should be restricted. In that context I agree in most instances. All freedoms should be tempered with civil responsibility rather than totally unrestricted. This can be done without trampling the Constitution, if there's anything still left of that shredded document.

Legitimate free speech is feared most of all.

The US government was founded as the result of a revolution against corruption under another famous George.

It's interesting that when a new government is formed by revolution against corruption, one of the first things it does is make revolution against the new government a crime, even if for the very same reasons as before!

But what can be done in the case of a government so totally corrupt and deaf to the voice of "We The People" that it becomes unbearable?

In the early days, We The People could take up arms against a corrupt regime - that's the purpose for the 2nd amendment - and why the government wants to disarm the population - not because of gun accidents.

Gone are the days when the oppressed people could depose their corrupt governments using the same weapons possessed by the government. The corrupt governments of today would simply turn their WMD upon their own citizens before giving up the ghost of their to-the-bone corruption. Mark those words for the future.

Arrival in Washington these days is proof of corruption in itself or they never would have made it. Voting doesn't work because the greedy corporate Nazis who nearly control all government policy will never sponsor an honest politician (talk about an endangered species!) from whom they cannot profit.

Those corporations simply dangle their sponsored political puppets in front of us every 4 years and allow us the pretense of selecting our leaders while they continue to manipulate the government in the background and nothing ever really changes for the better - except for them.

Among the first stages of a corrupt regime takeover is faux government manipulated news, suppression of legitimate free speech and fabricated or exaggerated excuses to suspend civil liberties and disarm the people against its corruption under the false pretense of "national security" - security which their corruption jeopardised in the first place and Americans at home and abroad suffer for because of it.

It is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Hermann Goering
Nazi Reichmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief
At the Nuremberg Trials after World War II


Abraham Lincoln, 16th US president, seems to have considered this problem when he said:

We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

and

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it.


The most severe crime in the land is attempting to depose a corrupt regime.

The United States of Amerika is now a bona fide, dues paying, card carrying fascist regime worse than any in prior history under the worst leader in history and worsening by the day.

I wonder if Bush and his neo-conmen will use a terror attack as an excuse to proclaim a national emergency and cling to power. Any excuse will do. After all, his god, Adolf Hitler did.

"Congress shall make no law (OK - In that case, we'll just do it - to hell with writing a law then) respecting an establishment of religion (unless they believe in the prophesies of mass murdering tribal Monkey Men), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (like blowing people up in its name - that's OK); or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press (unless it's the truth); or the right of the people peaceably (no T-shirt with patriotic quotes allowed - they can incite violence) to assemble (with the usual impotent effect - and far away from anyone who matters ever seeing or hearing it), and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.(YAWN and furthermore, YAWN)"

Free speech today is a bigger myth than it's ever been before.
 
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Here:

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The United States of Amerika is now a bona fide, dues paying, card carrying fascist regime worse than any in prior history under the worst leader in history and worsening by the day.
Idiocy such as this is sig material if I ever saw it.
 
Gone are the days when the oppressed people could depose their corrupt governments using the same weapons possessed by the government. The corrupt governments of today would simply turn their WMD upon their own citizens before giving up the ghost of their to-the-bone corruption. Mark those words for the future.
It's a myth that citizens in revolutionary times possessed the same weapons as their government. The government had artillery that the common man simply did not own. While it's possible that George Bush could use WMD against civilians I don't think that it is really likely or that many if any reasonable people believe that Americans are in serious danger of the government using nukes on America in the event the government goes to hell.

Arrival in Washington these days is proof of corruption in itself or they never would have made it. Voting doesn't work because the greedy corporate Nazis who nearly control all government policy will never sponsor an honest politician (talk about an endangered species!) from whom they cannot profit.
There is no evidence that politicians are more corrupt today than days gone past. If corporations control all of government then how come they can't get their hands on public lands they so desperately want? Why can't they cut down the timber that they desperately want and can't get their hands on? Why can't the drill for oil off of the coast of California that they so desperately want? Why can't they repeal all of the regulation that they despise. Much of it truly harmful to business and in the long run to citizens. The facts speak against you. Yes, many politicians are corrupt but the American political landscape is made up of competing sides. There are many people who make a living representing environmental concerns and public concerns including social welfare who often successfully sue on behalf of the poor. There are laws that are counter to the Corporations that the corporations can't get rid of.

BTW, the stereotype of evil corporations is just that, a stereotype. It is corporations that fund much of the arts, Public Broadcasting, social endeavors, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are but two who have donated large sums of money for social issues. George Soros has spent millions fighting George Bush and his administration. You think that these men are Nazis?

One last thing, you Godwined the thread.

{rest of rant snipped} It got trite real fast.
 
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Well let's be honest here for a moment. America does by and large have free speech.
So does China; just read their constitution.
So, I'm with you when it comes to censorship in that I'm against it and I frequently and actively campaign on behalf of free speech but I can't take your position that America does not at all value free speech or that there is no free speech in America. That's just silly BS.
No, it just seems that the speech you value isn't being censored.
 
So does China; just read their constitution.
?

I think there is a very large pragmatic difference. China controls the media. China can and has arrested people for speech violations. China uses economic leverage to force outside organizations like Google to restrict content.

In America the government and institutions are critisized each and every day. In China, AIU not so much.

No, it just seems that the speech you value isn't being censored.
I hate to keep making this point but this just isn't true. I fought on behalf of a person who made very derogatory comments about James Randi. Randi is at top of my list of non-family that I admire. I fought to keep Bethke from being banned from JREF and I despised Bethke. I went to see Passion of the Christ and Stop the church and I was against the messages of those works. I went to see the Mapplethorpe exhibit even though I find his work with children offensive. I campaigned on behalf Laura Schlesinger to keep her TV show. I sent letters to her station and letters to the editors. I despise Laura Schlesinger. In this forum I have stood up for the Dixie Chicks even though I disagreed with them.

So, you are wrong. I have always stood up for free speech every chance that I have gotten with one exception. I campaigned for criminalizing the possession of hard core child pornography. I don't think it is ok to own material containing children having sexual intercourse. I'm a bit on the fence when it comes simulated sex or sexually provocative photos of children depending on how graphic and the nature of the photos (Mapplethorpe was not over the line) and support I support virtual child pornography on principle even though I find it thoroughly disgusting.

Aside from that you won't find me arguing against free speech.
 
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There are children in Myspace forums yet we are allowed to cuss, though not excessively.
 
So what? We don't support the blatant Nazi lies. You do.

I support the right of people to DISCUSS nazism. Supporting someones right to say something doesnt mean you support what they say, at least not to me.

Here's a similar American example:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000871----000-.html

You can went straight to prison as soon someone considers you as a threat if you would publicly discuss if and how it would be possible to kill the President.

that link says its illegal to send threats via mail to the president, expressing that you want to kill/hurt/harass them. Thats illegal to do to anyone.

There is no difference.

I see a huge difference between a personal direct threat of bodily harm to someone and denial of the halocaust or general racism.
 
Aside from that you won't find me arguing against free speech.

So, I'm with you when it comes to censorship in that I'm against it and I frequently and actively campaign on behalf of free speech but I can't take your position that America does not at all value free speech or that there is no free speech in America. That's just silly BS.

Ok, "does not at all value" meant something different to me when I jumbled the words in my head. I think I was accidentally reading your comments as "I don' think any forms of free speech are infringed in America". I pointed out China because I was saying that there are certainly communities that pretend to practice freedom of speech but do not. I think America is one of these communities. I'll remember to read things slower. We should go back to attacking whomever you were originally attacking.
 
Aren't you in Germany? If so you have such a law.


We have the Meinungsfreiheit (Freedom of Opinion) here. What I don't understand is why I hear "Freedom of Speech" so often in America, as if it's somehow praised and something special - instead something pretty basic in a democracy - that isn't worth to talk about very much at all.

You need to go back to England and follow two roots for the idea that there is "bad" and "good" words in English.

One root is the censorship that was imposed by the Christian Church in regards to profanity e.g. taking the Lord's name in vain, this was enforced for many centuries.

The other root is the origin of English as a national language - for many centuries English was the language of a subjugated people (the peasants) whilst various other languages (most predominantly the ancestor of today's French) was spoken by the rulers of the nation. What developed was an idea that the words used by the peasants were "uncouth" "nasty" "brutish" and so on. And we still see that reflected in the UK and the USA in the idea that some words are "bad" and shouldn't be heard in polite company. (And as usual the Victorians helped cement this hypocrisy.)


While I'm pretty aware of "good" and "bad" words, meaning words that are declared so because moral or racist backgrounds, I don't understand the need to "beep" them out when everybody knows what someone said:

Like the Media showing the latest "Kramer" Rant when he was saying the bad N-Word, which was the reason for showing it on TV, but at the same time not actually showing that he actually said that. It's a little bit paradox - and probably a result of broad personal attitudes if it's considered as problem.

And there is the funny Idea that people, especially Teenagers love to use them just because they are considered as "bad" - to revolt against this kind of morality.

Now the United Kingdom is famous for their political correctness and politeness in general - so I guess they don't have this problem with an excessive use of profanity or "Bad" words at all, do they?
 
I support the right of people to DISCUSS nazism. Supporting someones right to say something doesnt mean you support what they say, at least not to me.

that link says its illegal to send threats via mail to the president, expressing that you want to kill/hurt/harass them. Thats illegal to do to anyone.

I see a huge difference between a personal direct threat of bodily harm to someone and denial of the halocaust or general racism.


No, you don't understand the concept here. On one Hand it had broad acceptance from the citizens here because to lie about the Holocaust is on one Hand pretty embarrassing, but much more making people here very, very angry because of the general awareness of the facts.

Then there is the Idea that this is a kind of libel against Jews who were in a Konzentrationslager or had relatives who died there. And beside that, it's a proven Lie and therefore pretty much ignorant racism, isn't it?

Now you might think of my american example as one that doesn't really restrict your right for free speech - while in reality it does. The difference is that you consider one thing as more logical than another example of restricting free speech.

But there are many cases in which free speech in the US is also restricted:

You are not allowed to cry "Oh God! A Bomb!" or something similar in a full theater.
You are not allowed to call the Firehouse and say: "My Neighbors house is burning".
You are not allowed to lie in court.
You are not allowed to demonstrate opinions outside of a Free Speech Zone if there is such a Zone for this matter.

In Canada, school teachers have limited freedom of speech, both on and off the job, regarding certain issues (e.g., homosexuality).

And here are even more restrictions you might not be aware of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech#Restrictions_on_free_speech
 
as if it's somehow praised and something special - instead something pretty basic in a democracy - that isn't worth to talk about very much at all.

I agree, and if it weren't for your weekly thread about it we wouldn't be talking about it very much at all. :)
 
Ok, "does not at all value" meant something different to me when I jumbled the words in my head. I think I was accidentally reading your comments as "I don' think any forms of free speech are infringed in America".
Cool.

I pointed out China because I was saying that there are certainly communities that pretend to practice freedom of speech but do not. I think America is one of these communities.
I think I understand your point. That while America largely has freedom of speech in ways that China does not America citizens themselves are not always willing to fight for their rights or appreciate those rights. Correct?

I'll remember to read things slower. We should go back to attacking whomever you were originally attacking.
:)
 

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