Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[drkitten]

Thanks for requesting and post that information Nova Land. I think we can clearly conclude that Misty Newburry was not arrested for praying.

The irony of it is that even if DOC had (for once) gotten his facts right, it wouldn't have mattered. Police make mistakes -- that's why "false arrest" is on the law books. School administrators make mistakes, too. The ACLU has a long history of suing govermental entities that wrongfully deny people and groups their "free exercise of religion" rights, and DOC could, if he wanted, pull something like fifty cases off the ACLU website where some idiot administrator made the wrong decision and got slapped down.

And it still wouldn't mean anything about whether or not the United States was a "Christian Nation" (it isn't), or whether or not the "Separation of Church and State" is a Constitutional mandate (it is), or whether or not the Founding Fathers would have supported, or even permitted, state sponsorshpi of religion (they wouldn't have). Because isolated incidents are, well, isolated incidents, and the Founding Fathers even expected such isolated incidents to occur. Gee, I guess they weren't being stupid putting the right to "petition the government for redress of grievances" in that document, too. They expected that someone, somwhere, would screw up and step over the line.

The difference, of course, is that DOC isn't screwing up and stepping over the line. He's deliberately crossing it and then telling lies about the line not being there in the first place.

 

[kmortis]

The irony of it is that even if DOC had (for once) gotten his facts right, it wouldn't have mattered. Police make mistakes -- that's why "false arrest" is on the law books. School administrators make mistakes, too. The ACLU has a long history of suing govermental entities that wrongfully deny people and groups their "free exercise of religion" rights, and DOC could, if he wanted, pull something like fifty cases off the ACLU website where some idiot administrator made the wrong decision and got slapped down.

And it still wouldn't mean anything about whether or not the United States was a "Christian Nation" (it isn't), or whether or not the "Separation of Church and State" is a Constitutional mandate (it is), or whether or not the Founding Fathers would have supported, or even permitted, state sponsorshpi of religion (they wouldn't have). Because isolated incidents are, well, isolated incidents, and the Founding Fathers even expected such isolated incidents to occur. Gee, I guess they weren't being stupid putting the right to "petition the government for redress of grievances" in that document, too. They expected that someone, somwhere, would screw up and step over the line.

The difference, of course, is that DOC isn't screwing up and stepping over the line. He's deliberately crossing it and then telling lies about the line not being there in the first place.

Oh, there you go again...attacking the messenger. You naughty, naughty NAUGHTY feline, you!

 

[DOC]

Oh, there you go again...attacking the messenger.

I'm glad at least one person has seen the light.

 

[DOC]

Thanks for requesting and post that information Nova Land. I think we can clearly conclude that Misty Newburry was not arrested for praying.

Then why were they arrested. If a group of students were just standing around and talking do you think the police would have been called. Why was it necessary to disperse students who were talking.

 

[wahrheit]

I'm glad at least one person has seen the light.

Blah blah. Even you are smart enough to understand the irony in kmortis' post. Of course, you 'forgot' to quote the second half of it. Why? Tell you why: You still hope that one or the other occassional lurker, without all the context of the thread, thinks you got some kind of approval. Kinda cheap tactics, don't you think?

 

[Mojo]

The difference, of course, is that DOC isn't screwing up and stepping over the line. He's deliberately crossing it and then telling lies about the line not being there in the first place.

I'm still waiting for him to provide something to back up his assertion that I called someone an idiot.

 

[kmortis]

Then why were they arrested. If a group of students were just standing around and talking do you think the police would have been called. Why was it necessary to disperse students who were talking.

They weren't arrested. Dispersed, yes, but not arrested.

Here's another topic for you to ignore researching. Go and look up and see who's responsible for te removal of religion from public schools. I'll give you a small hint, they were theists.

And thanks for misquoting me. It's nice to know just what kind of immoral buffoon I'm dealing with. Oh, and so you can stop leveling the charge against Mojo, I AM calling you an idiot. You, DOC are quite possibly the biggest idiot I've run across in a good long while.

 

[fuelair]

They weren't arrested. Dispersed, yes, but not arrested.

Here's another topic for you to ignore researching. Go and look up and see who's responsible for te removal of religion from public schools. I'll give you a small hint, they were theists.

And thanks for misquoting me. It's nice to know just what kind of immoral buffoon I'm dealing with. Oh, and so you can stop leveling the charge against Mojo, I AM calling you an idiot. You, DOC are quite possibly the biggest idiot I've run across in a good long while.

By George, I think he's got it!!!

 

[slingblade]

Then why were they arrested. If a group of students were just standing around and talking do you think the police would have been called. Why was it necessary to disperse students who were talking.

It wasn't. Okay? It wasn't necessary to disperse students who were either talking or praying.

And when these things get into court (if they even make it that far), they get dismissed. Why? Because students do have the right to pray voluntarily at school.

How about you show me one where the students were actually convicted and had to serve real jail time for voluntary prayer in a public school?

 

[skeptifem]

Then why were they arrested.

UH they werent. there are multiple sources of information that were provided in this thread to prove that.

Even if you just watched cops for an hour or two you would know that being in the back of a police car is NOT neccesarily an arrest.

sometimes, when there is a large group of people to confront and not enough officers the police will decide to DETAIN some of them in the back of a police car to make sure things stay orderly. Its not uncommon.

And yes, police officers make mistakes sometimes. the proper way of dealing with it is NOT to disobey their instructions like the students decided to, it doesnt accomplish anything. the correct way to go about it is to get the officers badge numbers and report it to their supervisor so it can be delt with accordingly.

 

[DOC]

Well the case of the 2 students being put in the back of a police car is just the tip of the iceberg. Many more instances of improper restrictions of freedoms occurred. The following is from a Congressional Hearing.


"Beyond the anecdotal evidence provided by the stories of Pierre Bynum and Misty Newberry, there is other substantial evidence of a real and continuing problem over students' rights of religious freedom in the public schools. The American Center for Law and Justice, for which I work, recently surveyed its intake records for the period from July 1, 1995 through June 13, 1997, to take stock of the numbers and kinds of incidents in which students have suffered deprivation of religious liberties. That survey uncovered over 450 instances in which the religious content of student expression or activity prompted some school authority to restrict religious freedom.

Those incidents included:

20 instances of students being prevented from praying or being subjected to discipline for praying


106 instances in which students were disciplined or corrected for bringing a bible or a religious book with them to school or reading their bibles or religious books on campus

51 instances of students disciplined for, or barred from, sharing religious writings with students

130 instances of school officials barring the formation of student-led bible clubs or prayer groups, or denying such groups equal access in accord with federal law

65 instances of students being denied a grade or being required to redo an assignment because of the inclusion of religious content in their work

48 instances of restricting or prohibiting the wearing of shirts, clothing or jewelry bearing religious messages

48 instances of students or student groups being denied the opportunity to participate in music or talent shows because of religious content in their performances

This summary of incidents suggests strongly that public school officials and their attorneys have forgotten something that the Congress well knew at the time of its adoption of the Northwest Ordinance. In the Ordinance, the Congress stated that ''[r]eligion, morality, and knowledge'' were ''necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind,'' and that the diffusion of ''[r]eligion, morality, and knowledge'' are intimately linked with ''schools and the means of education.''

From a Congressional Hearing (Jay Seculow speaking)

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju57840.000/hju57840_0.HTM#0

 

[skeptifem]

doc, you do realize that 450 people complaining does not mean that their complaints are completely accurate. and even if they are, this is 450 incidents out of millions of students, its hardly something to get alarmed about, and it does not provide evidence of your assertion, specifically the extent that you suggest this problem has reached.

 

[kmortis]

Well, I see that the idiot's back, spewing more innacuracies. What is it this time? Oh dearie me, according to a guy who has been shown repeatedly to not provide accurate information, 450 kiddievinkies had their feelings hurt. Aww...

Idiot

 

[DOC]

doc, you do realize that 450 people complaining does not mean that their complaints are completely accurate. and even if they are, this is 450 incidents out of millions of students, its hardly something to get alarmed about, and it does not provide evidence of your assertion, specifically the extent that you suggest this problem has reached.

Those are just the 450 in two years that took the time and energy to complain about about their teachers and school officials... Plus, what percentage of high school students do you think ever even heard about the American Center for Law and Justice or knew who to complain to. The true figure of students whose rights were wrongly breached has to be way higher.

At least things are getting better and teachers are now being informed that its OK for students to bring their bible to school and its OK to have Bible clubs in public school, etc. Hopefully there won't be anymore calls to the police.

 

[Ducky]

Those are just the 450 in two years that took the time and energy to complain about about their teachers and school officials... Plus, what percentage of high school students do you think ever even heard about the American Center for Law and Justice or knew who to complain to. The true figure of students whose rights were wrongly breached has to be way higher.

At least things are getting better and teachers are now being informed that its OK for students to bring their bible to school and its OK to have Bible clubs in public school, etc. Hopefully their won't be anymore calls to the police.

How about a primary source other than congressional testimony from someone we have shown to be willing to cite inaccuracies and lies?

If I recall correctly, it has been testified that the mafia doesn't exist before a congressional hearing. That was a lie too.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

How about a primary source other than congressional testimony from someone we have shown to be willing to cite inaccuracies and lies?

If I recall correctly, it has been testified that the mafia doesn't exist before a congressional hearing. That was a lie too.

Right wing Christians like Kennedy, Barton, Seculow, and DOC never lie, FS. They're just stretching the truth for JEEZ-us!

 

[DOC]

How about a primary source other than congressional testimony from someone we have shown to be willing to cite inaccuracies and lies?.

What are the deliberate untruths made with the intent to deceive (lies) that Jay Seculow of the American Center for Law and Justice has made.

 

[Ducky]

What are the deliberate untruths made with the intent to deceive (lies) that Jay Seculow of the American Center for Law and Justice has made.

Nice try, we've already gone over this.

Why don't you answer for your assertions. Cite primary sources please.

 

[skeptifem]

double post!

 

[skeptifem]

Those are just the 450 in two years that took the time and energy to complain about about their teachers and school officials... Plus, what percentage of high school students do you think ever even heard about the American Center for Law and Justice or knew who to complain to. The true figure of students whose rights were wrongly breached has to be way higher.

At least things are getting better and teachers are now being informed that its OK for students to bring their bible to school and its OK to have Bible clubs in public school, etc. Hopefully there won't be anymore calls to the police.

fine. provide better evidence. Because 450 student complains in a two year span of time does not convince me there is any sort of major issue.