All 9/11 ideas welcomed here

Sooooo... On one hand you won't accept OBL saying that his organisation was behind it as enough evidence, but on the other you will accept a claim that someone else claims that Nick Rockefeller said something as total proof? Anyone else see the problem here?

It is not the same, OBL may have been behind it (but he did initially deny involvement) but I think we can take a Rockefeller's statement about world affairs much more serious. Has anyone found out more about what Rockefeller said?
 
"Deep seeded" is not bad. It has a dark, mysterious sound, more evocative than worn-down old deep-seated.

"Where there is illiteracy, there also is wit." Who said that? Mark Twain?
 
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Look Arkan, I am not proving evidence based on an argument I have predetermined, I am simply asking questions based on a theory (that's how theories are proved)! My conclusion about this is by no means set in stone, just not enough evidence to believe 911 happend the way the mainstream media says it did!

and by the way hot shot...this quote "Theft is illegal because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be against the law." is foolish...theft is illegal because we created laws to defeat a morally offensive act as taking something somone else has without their consent! True though, if theft was legal then it wouldn't be against the law to do it ;) You don't even know my position on things...strawman! I am not saying Rockefeller's statement are CT driven because 911 was an inside job. I'm saying if he had motivations behind 911 (or other big wigs) then it would prove the theory, but don't be saying that you blindly collect evidence and base your opinion based on that evidence without atleast theorizing first...we all do and so do great scientists! Evolution is a theory and people look at apes to try and prove it...or creationists try to point out God's hand in the world to prove their theory...that is not a fallacy, it is proving your theory (based no little evidence) by collecting more evidence! But we should not be blind to contrary evidence either (contrary to our theory)!
 
the nick rockefeller business seems to come second hand from aaron russo, anyone got a firsthand source for it? this was all i cna find

This was my biggest problem with the whole thing when this was first brought up here. I was unable to pull up any kind of first-hand sources for what Nick Rockefeller actually said. All we get is Russo's word that yes, Rockefeller said all this.

Then it's back to the usual plop about the Federal Reserve system.
 


As I said, Christ knows the truth and Christians are not in the 9/11 truth movement of lies. Since Christ was a Jew, he knows he did not do it, therefore, Christians can not be truthers since truthers blame the Jews, Christ is a Jew, Christian (you know those people who follow the teachings of Jesus, Christ) can not be truthers. Simple logic and true since Christ would never blame others, how can truthers blame Jews, since Jesus was a Jew.


I disagree, the truth movement is full of smart people that theorize about 911 and its aftermath based off world history, former terrorist attacks and current evidence (as much as we have). I think a Christian is somone who looks at all evidence from all angles and makes a decision based off overwhelming evidence in one way or another....we don't have that with 911 and it's hard to confirm any theory because of that. Not all truthers blame the "Jews", I don't atleast! Christ was a Jew but also God...so we could get very deep in this but its pointless. Christ blamed the pharasee's for making the temple into a "den of theves"...he blamed people for persecuting him, and us for standing fast in our faith. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Shows he put blame on someone atleast! Your argument is truly illogical for one you say that all "truthers" blame the Jews and that all "truthers" comment are lies...which in itself is a lie...enough said
 
Look Arkan, I am not proving evidence based on an argument I have predetermined, I am simply asking questions based on a theory (that's how theories are proved)! My conclusion about this is by no means set in stone, just not enough evidence to believe 911 happend the way the mainstream media says it did!
Your statement of, "family is a deep seeded illuminati family," makes it a case of begging the question.

and by the way hot shot...this quote "Theft is illegal because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be against the law." is foolish...theft is illegal because we created laws to defeat a morally offensive act as taking something somone else has without their consent! True though, if theft was legal then it wouldn't be against the law to do it ;)
The example provided is a simplified statement to show how begging the question is logically fallacious. Focus on the meat rather than ridiculing a simple example:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
http://www.sfdebris.com/logic.html
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Petitio principii
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/rational-argument-glossary.html

You don't even know my position on things...strawman!
I did not make any statement as to what your positions are, neither did I use any such statements to debunk your position; ergo, I could not have made a strawman fallacy.

I am not saying Rockefeller's statement are CT driven because 911 was an inside job. I'm saying if he had motivations behind 911 (or other big wigs) then it would prove the theory,
Go read the links above.

but don't be saying that you blindly collect evidence and base your opinion based on that evidence without atleast theorizing first...we all do and so do great scientists!
No, you make a prediction, gather evidence, and test the prediction.
http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/jarrett/talks/LiU/sci_method_2.html
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=13&articleID=00028C98-6F5C-152E-A9F183414B7F0000
http://spl.haxial.net/religion/misc/carl-sagan.html or http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1663530#post1663530
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2320446#post2320446

Evolution is a theory and people look at apes to try and prove it...or creationists try to point out God's hand in the world to prove their theory...that is not a fallacy, it is proving your theory (based no little evidence) by collecting more evidence! But we should not be blind to contrary evidence either (contrary to our theory)!
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/
http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/fallacies.shtml
 
Moreover, israelside, you've mentioned the Nick Rockefeller thing several times without even showing evidence that he said what Russo claims he did. The only piece of "evidence" for the claim appears to be an interview between Russo and Alex Jones claiming that Nick Rockefeller said things about microchips and population control.

In fact, Russo says a lot of things without bothering to support them. Israel being relocated to Arizona, anyone?
 
ok Arkan I don't need 50 websites saying the same thing...I am not speaking in circles like "begging the question" indicates. I said the Rockefellers are a pronounced Illuminati family and therefore has a great stake of influence in world affairs/policy...this makes him a credible source (doesn't prove he did 911). His own admission shows that he had involvement in or knew someone that was planning the 911 attacks! This is no fallacy, I am not assuming he was involved in 911 because his association or because 911 was caused by elite's. It would be wrong to say, well Rockefeller's statements show he was involved in 911 because 911 was caused by elites (true or not). Those fallacies are not clearly explained, not enough communication and too much assumption! I am saying his family is a mover and shaker in the world, this makes him credible!!! Now, his comments show that he knew or knew of someone that planned the attacks on 9/11....is that to hard for you?
 
Moreover, israelside, you've mentioned the Nick Rockefeller thing several times without even showing evidence that he said what Russo claims he did. The only piece of "evidence" for the claim appears to be an interview between Russo and Alex Jones claiming that Nick Rockefeller said things about microchips and population control.

In fact, Russo says a lot of things without bothering to support them. Israel being relocated to Arizona, anyone?

You're right Mr. Jonny, Russo is the only account, credible or not...if anyone finds anymore evidence please let us know. Let's get Nick on CNN :)
 
I am simply asking questions based on a theory (that's how theories are proved)!
No, the proof of a theory is in the evidence that supports it.

I think a Christian is somone who looks at all evidence from all angles and makes a decision based off overwhelming evidence in one way or another....we don't have that with 911 and it's hard to confirm any theory because of that.
If what you say is correct, then you won't have any problem pointing out what the investigations – which produced massive amounts of evidence – got wrong. Can you do that?
 
You're right Mr. Jonny, Russo is the only account, credible or not...if anyone finds anymore evidence please let us know. Let's get Nick on CNN :)

So you have basically no reason to leap to any conclusions based on what he said at all. So why don't you provide:

1) Evidence Nick Rockefeller said any of what Aaron Russo claims he did, not counting Aaron Russo claiming he said those things without evidence.

2) Evidence the Rockefellers are an "Illuminati family"

Go on, you must have something. Documents. Letters. Testimony by disgruntled insiders. Some kind of hard evidence. If not, why are you talking about the Rockefellers being an "Illuminati family?"

I see reasons to suspect Russo may not be the best, least biased source right off. I can see how the image of the tyrannical Rockefellers plays very well into his anti-Federal Reserve, taxation-is-illegal worldview. His views on these matters seem to prevent him from seeing the situation as anything but a deep-seated conspiracy.

Consider this, israelside:

The world is not ruled by evil masters bent on domination of the "sheeple." In fact, the world is not really ruled by anyone. Governments are held together by fragile, corruptable social contracts that can and do crumble into dust for the smallest of reasons.

Our economic system is built on the unsteady foundation of mutual consent. The market, through all its technical complexity, is simply a product of the people that make it up and their mutual wants and needs. It can be modelled and studied, but tends to resist attempts at controlling it in the most confounding ways.

Currency is worth nothing. Gold is worth nothing. Nothing is worth anything but what another person is willing to pay for it. There are no grand societies that rule through time and space, only groups of men and women trying to hold onto their fragile wealth in a changing, dangerous world.

The real world is one where a group of religious fanatics with sufficient resources and a few lucky breaks can snuff our a few thousand lives forever. The real world is one where a rogue leader could wield the power to wipe an entire city from the face of the Earth.

To say that 9/11 was caused by this evil cabal, or that the Illuminati manipulate history is to say "at least someone was in control!" All we need to do is remove them from power, then life will be fine.

Too bad that's not reality. The reality is that there will probably always be those who are willing to destroy others because of their fanatical beliefs. There is no global elite to fight against, no corporate masters that can be toppled to magically fix the world. There is only the true believer, waiting in the dark, sharpening his box-cutter, looking for an opportunity to strike against something he hates.

To say that 9/11 was not an inside job requires a measure courage. It requires that one admit that the world is chaotic, and sometime ◊◊◊◊ happens for no good reason. The "they" of the conspiracy theorist is a nice, warm, safe blanket against the real world. "They" might be horrible, but least "they" are predictable, and can be readily fought against.

Too bad it's not like that in the real world.
 
Better yet, that there is any such thing as an "Illuminati" for crying out loud. Leave alone that the Rockefellers were members.
 
It is not the same

No it's not the same, OBL's statments were firsthand, the claimed quote from Rockefeller is heresay.

OBL may have been behind it (but he did initially deny involvement)

Well duh! I mean come on, he was facing extradition to the US if he owned up. How many times have you heard about anyone that commited a crime owning up to it when first asked if they did it?

I think we can take a Rockefeller's statement about world affairs much more serious.

Why? Because it conforms to what you want to believe already?

Has anyone found out more about what Rockefeller said?

It was heresay from Aaron Russo which has nothing other then his word behind it as evidence of it ever occuring. This is Heresay, which you seem to have admited below.

You're right Mr. Jonny, Russo is the only account, credible or not...if anyone finds anymore evidence please let us know. Let's get Nick on CNN :)

For what purpose? If he really did say it, why would he admit to doing so, and if he claimed that he hadn't ever said it, would you believe him?
 
I think a Christian is somone who looks at all evidence from all angles and makes a decision based off overwhelming evidence in one way or another....


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

A Christian is a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. What are you smoking?

-Gumboot
 
Better yet, that there is any such thing as an "Illuminati" for crying out loud. Leave alone that the Rockefellers were members.
He saw it on the History Channel, it has to be "true". Can I sue the History Channel, they let as much misinformation flow sometimes as the truth movement does all the time.
 
ok Arkan I don't need 50 websites saying the same thing...I am not speaking in circles like "begging the question" indicates.
Petitio principii <> circulus in demonstrando.

I said the Rockefellers are a pronounced Illuminati family and therefore has a great stake of influence in world affairs/policy ...this makes him a credible source (doesn't prove he did 911).
THAT IS BEGGING THE QUESTION. You assume that we agree that the Illuminati exist, and that the Rockefellers are part of it. We do not. You must substantiate this, otherwise the rest of your argument is based upon a petitio principii fallacy.

ETA: Look, to put it another way, you are saying:
P1: If Rockefeller is part of the Illuminati, then he is a credible source
P2: He is part of the Illuminati
C: Therefore, he is a credible source

Now, while that is logically consistent, P2 has not been shown to be true, nor have you demonstrated that the Illuminati exist as an organization such as you imply. Therefore, we can not agree with your conclusion.
 
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Afternoon bob, Nick Rockefeller has quite a deal of authority in his field and so do many of the Rockefeller's as a whole. The family is a deep seeded illuminati family

Evidence ?

and have quite a bit of money (which if you don't notice moves things in this world).

Ah, yes. Evil money. Do you work for free ?

I might be wrong, but the odds are when someone like that speaks with such determination and conviction how can you really ignore it right?

That's called charisma, and it's not an argument.
 
Look Arkan, I am not proving evidence based on an argument I have predetermined, I am simply asking questions based on a theory (that's how theories are proved)!

Nope. Theories are proved by providing evidence, the very thing you admit to NOT doing.

"Theft is illegal because if it wasn't then it wouldn't be against the law." is foolish...theft is illegal because we created laws to defeat a morally offensive act as taking something somone else has without their consent!

Which is the same thing as the first sentence.

I'm saying if he had motivations behind 911 (or other big wigs) then it would prove the theory

No, it wouldn't. Motive is only one of the things that puts physical evidence into perspective, but it does not prove a case.

Evolution is a theory and people look at apes to try and prove it...or creationists try to point out God's hand in the world to prove their theory...that is not a fallacy, it is proving your theory (based no little evidence) by collecting more evidence!

The evidence for evolution is so overwhelming as to be called FACT. The process of evolution, however, is the theory. Do you know what the word "theory" means ?

But we should not be blind to contrary evidence either (contrary to our theory)!

Hopefully YOU have been doing that as well.
 
I disagree, the truth movement is full of smart people that theorize about 911 and its aftermath based off world history, former terrorist attacks and current evidence (as much as we have).

I don't care if they're smart or not. I care about the evidence that they have.

Christ was a Jew but also God...so we could get very deep in this but its pointless. Christ blamed the pharasee's for making the temple into a "den of theves"...he blamed people for persecuting him, and us for standing fast in our faith. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Yes, and Gandalf said that all you can decide is what to do with the time that is given to you. Quoting fictional characters is not the issue.

I said the Rockefellers are a pronounced Illuminati family and therefore has a great stake of influence in world affairs/policy...this makes him a credible source

Except that we don't even know if the Illuminati exist.
 

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