Libertarian Hero Ron Paul Blames US for 9/11

[Skibum]

What false claim?

America invaded Iraq = XXX,XXX civilian casualties
America didn't invade Iraq = XX civilian casualties

Do you see the difference? Why the heck is America in Iraq if not for stirring up the whole middle-east?

Your claim was that US troops are killing 1000 per month.
I asked for proof, so far you have provided nothing that comes anywhere close to supporting that claim.

Of course you can argue: "But, but, but .... 9/11 ... 3000 innocent people."
And I will tell you that 9/11 had nothing to do with IRAQ. And I am right about it. And I know it hurts - but it hurts people living down there much more than you.

Why would I argue that, I already know that 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq.

And the War creates more Blowbacks, more hate, more Jihadists, more deaths. But instead arguing about this issue, you all are sidestepping within the last hours. Why is that? Afraid? Uncomfortable?

What have I sidestepped? I basically agree with the above statement. So no I'm not afraid or uncomfortable.

 

[Oliver]

So why the strawman? Why did you imply that I was a heartless bigot?
Do you realize how insulting you can be?
(btw I apologize for the uncivil remark)

I know I can be really sarcastic. On the other Hand you're nothing but some letters on my monitor, someone without a forename.

Who doesn't?

Well, I met some guys who were pretty happy that they're all slaughtering themselves.

 

[Pardalis]

Well, I met some guys who were pretty happy that they're all slaughtering themselves.

You hang out at some strange places.

 

[Oliver]

Then this claim has to be false:

So which is it Oliver - 100,000 civilian deaths a year without the invasion or less than 100? Or do you just use whatever figure makes the US look worse?

So? Maybe at least you give it a try and you tell me how many people died during the embargo and how many in Iraq since you disagree with the estimations to defend an already lost position on this issue.

And oh, there are estimations of 6 million dead people because of nazi-germany. I wished there would have been an internet during this time and you would have blamed germany for what's going on.

There was no internet. But there is one now.

(No Pardalis, I'm not saying America is doing genocide in Iraq)

 

[WildCat]

So? Maybe at least you give it a try and you tell me how many people died during the embargo and how many in Iraq since you disagree with the estimations to defend an already lost position on this issue.

But you admit that both of your numbers cannot be true, correct? So which number are you willing to stand by? You don't get to pick both.

And oh, there are estimations of 6 million dead people because of nazi-germany. I wished there would have been an internet during this time and you would have blamed germany for what's going on.

There's people who claim Germany was responsible for WWII and all that entailed? The horror!

 

[mr rosewater]

And oh, there are estimations of 6 million dead people because of nazi-germany.

12 million but whose counting.

 

[Oliver]

12 million but whose counting.

This is sad, but true. That's why there are no actual numbers - only estimations.

 

[mr rosewater]

This is sad, but true. That's why there are no actual numbers - only estimations.

Whats done is done.

 

[Skibum]

12 million but whose counting.

If you really want to get technical its probably more than 40 million.



Either way, as mr rosewater said whats done is done.

Same thing with Iraq, that egg is already cracked scrambled and just about cooked.

Right now we are there not trying to kill people, but to keep them from killing each other.
We're damned if we stay or we're damned if we up and leave. Either way we're going to be the blame. Might as well do whats in our best interest in the meantime.

 

[Oliver]

But you admit that both of your numbers cannot be true, correct? So which number are you willing to stand by? You don't get to pick both.

Which 2 Numbers can't be true? I posted "Bodycount.com" because they have factual numbers but they also say that... :

"Because it relies on deaths reported by the media, it suggests its figures are an underestimate as "many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported".

Now the estimations range is from 100,000 to 950,000. But like Mr Rosewater said: "But whose counting?"

There's people who claim Germany was responsible for WWII and all that entailed? The horror!

It's true - they started their own Iraq War with Poland.

 

[a_unique_person]

Then this claim has to be false:


So which is it Oliver - 100,000 civilian deaths a year without the invasion or less than 100? Or do you just use whatever figure makes the US look worse?

You're just messing with semantics. Most people seem to agree the invasion has been handled imcompetently, on pretty simple evidence. Instead of concentrating on Afghanistan, which was always going to be difficult enough, the hubris kicked in and the Bush administration made a disastrous invasion of Iraq, which has solved nothing but resulted in the deaths of far more people than if the invasion hadn't happened.

 

[Oliver]

Whats done is done.

You're absolutely right. And what's happening now is happening now.

Anyway: It's 2 o`clock in the morning and I really need some sleep before I will continue to torture you again tomorrow.

Cheers,
Oliver

 

[a_unique_person]

Whats done is done.

Germany faced up to the horror of the holocaust. I don't recall seeing anything similar in regards to the US and Vietnam.

 

[WildCat]

Which 2 Numbers can't be true? I posted "Bodycount.com" because they have factual numbers but they also say that... :

"Because it relies on deaths reported by the media, it suggests its figures are an underestimate as "many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported".

So then 100,000 Iraqi deaths a year prior to the war is the estimate you stand by, and not XX (which I took to mean less than 100) deaths per year?

Now the estimations range is from 100,000 to 950,000.

Almost makes one to ask who's doing the counting, how they are counted, where they are counted, etc etc. Then perhaps we'd gain some insight.

It's true - they started their own Iraq War with Poland.

The meddling in the Spanish Civil War is more analogous.

 

[mr rosewater]

Germany faced up to the horror of the holocaust. I don't recall seeing anything similar in regards to the US and Vietnam.

You never well at least not from me.

 

[steverino]

Germany faced up to the horror of the holocaust. I don't recall seeing anything similar in regards to the US and Vietnam.

What the f are you saying here? Are you equating the magnitude of the Holocaust and the Viet Nam war?

Please define "face up to."

Please define "anything similar to facing up to."

This is all so vague and emotion-based.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Bwahahaha! Are you telling me that the cold war would have happened if the USSR and the USA had friendly relations?

Gullible, isn't it?

Oh. I thought that you were serious for a second. Because all you are advocating now is using a magic wand. We just *wish* everyone friendly and viola, no cold war. Tell it to the Finns. Or the Estonians. Romanians. Etc. etc.

I see a whole new foreign policy -- we simply hold 'friendly talks' at gumdrop mountain, over by the chocolate river and through the peppermint hills.

 

[a_unique_person]

What the f are you saying here? Are you equating the magnitude of the Holocaust and the Viet Nam war?

Please define "face up to."

Please define "anything similar to facing up to."

This is all so vague and emotion-based.

I'm not equating the magnitude, I'm saying that just as Germany had to face up to the Holocaust, the US should have faced up to what it was responsible for in Vietnam. If it had, then Iraq probably would not have happened.

 

[mr rosewater]

What the f are you saying here? Are you equating the magnitude of the Holocaust and the Viet Nam war?

Please define "face up to."

Please define "anything similar to facing up to."

This is all so vague and emotion-based.

AUP couldn't care less about Vietnam except to attempt a good U.S. bash which for him is always good fun, as far as the Holocaust reference I'm at a loss.

 

[steverino]

I'm not equating the magnitude, I'm saying that just as Germany had to face up to the Holocaust, the US should have faced up to what it was responsible for in Vietnam. If it had, then Iraq probably would not have happened.

Well, I appreciate that you replied. As an American, I can assure you that my country has indeed faced up to it. In the late 70's we were in a kind of funk, a denial, about Viet Nam, like a dormant period. Then books and big budget movies started pushing their way into our psyche. Homeless Viet Nam vets, and post-tramatic stress issues started getting a lot of attention. Viet Namese children who were off-spring of soldiers became front and center in our media. IOW, the consequences of it all.

I feel that America embraced the magnitude of our involvement in the war. I am sorry, but I am not buying this "denial-of-Viet-Nam's horrors" idea, let alone taking such an idea and connecting those dots to some sort of naive nationalistic enthusiasm to waging war in Iraq.

Had America gone from WWI to WWII to Korea, then faced Iraq, it is woo to speculate how gun-shy or gung-ho we would be to enter such a battle, in the absense of the Viet Nam experience.