Libertarian Hero Ron Paul Blames US for 9/11

steverino said:
Finally some clarity. And "we" are not killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq. Fighting factions, and Iranian insurgents are. Blame America First strikes again.
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The OP was talking about America's foreign policy failures over a long period of time coming home to roost. There are many.

Iraq was not set up by the US, but by Great Britain, IIRC, on the basis that it was designed to be unstable. Many of the conflicts around the world are happening partly due to lines arbitrarily or deliberately drawn on maps by imperialist powers with no regard to the actual ethnic divisions that existed in reality.

Certainly, Bush went into Iraq with a seriously flawed plan for what was to happen after he went in.
 
a_unique_person said:
The OP was talking about America's foreign policy failures over a long period of time coming home to roost. There are many.

Iraq was not set up by the US, but by Great Britain, IIRC, on the basis that it was designed to be unstable. Many of the conflicts around the world are happening partly due to lines arbitrarily or deliberately drawn on maps by imperialist powers with no regard to the actual ethnic divisions that existed in reality.
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I completely agree with you. And now Britain is out, and America and Britain want these countries to be Democracies and live together in peace. And these factions hate each other. Well, they need to find a way to live together. Flying into our buildings does not create harmony between enemy factions, as we can see.
 
corplinx said:
Oliver, if you want to roll with the big dogs, you have to put away the play book from 2 years ago son.

http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html
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Sure. I blindly accept any intelligence reports connected to plans for an Iraq war that was ready long before 9/11. But the attempt to get nuclear material is the same as having nuclear material, right?

But since you're such a wise guy: Explain the US foreign policy that looks like some kind of imperialism - and I give you a hint, I don't believe anyone in the White House was scared about WMD's as long it wouldn't be a threat to the Troops during an invasion of Iraq. That was fear mongering Propaganda to get your support. ;)

So how clever and honest are you: Why is America in Iraq?
 
Pardalis said:
What? Are you saying that the US got what they deserved on 9/11 too?
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Deserved? Hell no. Was it blowback? Hell yes.

So let's make it clear, deserved, no. (violence is wrong)

Traceable to USA foreign policy and to be expected, yes.

Do I think those that disagree are in denial? Hell yes again. There is so much evidence including the words of the terrorists themselves, that I feel many here are in either deep denial or are just being disingenuous.
 
WildCat said:
Nonsense, Saddam came to power without any help at all from the US. In fact, his primary arms suppliers and influence was to USSR, Stalin was a hero to him. please retract this claim.
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Prior to the UPI story, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed that the Ba'ath Party now so reviled by average Americans was essentially installed by the CIA in 1963 in response to the Iraqi leader General Abd al-Karim Qasim, a bloody dictator who backed out of the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact and talked about nationalizing Iraq's oil industry. "We came to power on a CIA train," admitted Ali Saleh Sa'adi, Ba'ath Party secretary general at the time. As James Critchfield, then head of the CIA in the Middle East, told Andrew and Patrick Cockburn ("Out of the Ashes, The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein," 2000), the CIA regarded the Ba'athist coup against Qasim "a great victory" and also considered it their favorite coup.

"The Ba'athist coup, resulted in the return to Iraq of young fellow-Ba'athist Saddam Hussein, who had fled to Egypt after his earlier abortive attempt to assassinate Qasim," writes Alfred Mendes ("Blood for Oil," Spectrezine). "Saddam was immediately assigned to head the Al-Jihaz al-Khas, the clandestine Ba'athist Intelligence organization. As such, he was soon involved in the killing of some 5,000 communists. Saddam's rise to power had, ironically, begun on the back of a CIA-engineered coup!"

In fact, according to Said K. Aburish ("A Brutal Friendship: The West and the Arab Elite," 1997), many of the people on CIA hit lists had nothing to do with the communists; thousands were "fellaheen [peasants] and the Muthaqafeen or educated classes." According to Aburish, the Ba'ath Party contact man during the CIA-engineered coup was William Lakeland, the US assistant military attache in Baghdad.

"United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account," writes Richard Sale ("Saddam key in early CIA plot," UPI, April 10, 2003). "The CIA declined to comment on the report."

According to a former senior State Department official, writes Sale, "Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements." Adel Darwish ("Unholy Babylon: The Secret History of Saddam's War," 1997) told Sale that one Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attache at the Egyptian Embassy, was Saddam's "paymaster" and that Saddam's handler was an "Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account."
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http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Nimmo_Saddam-CIA.htm
 
These are Bin Laden's words...

Oh American people, my talk to you is about the best way to avoid another Manhattan, about the war, its causes, and results. Security is an important pillar of human life. Free people do not relinquish their security. This is contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.
Let him tell us why we did not strike Sweden, for example. It is known that those who hate freedom do not have proud souls, like the souls of the 19 people [killed while perpetrating the 11 September 2001 attacks], may God have mercy on them.
We fought you because we are free and do not accept injustice. We want to restore freedom to our nation. Just as you waste our security, we will waste your security.


I am amazed at you. Although almost four years have passed since the [11 September] incidents, Bush is still practising distortion and confusion.
He also continues to conceal from you the real reason [for the 11 September attacks]. Thus, the motives still exist for repeating what happened.
I will speak to you about the reasons behind these incidents. I will honestly tell you about the minutes in which the decision was made so that you will consider. I say to you that God knows that the idea of striking the towers never occurred to us.
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Your security is in your own hands
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But, after things had gone too far and we saw the injustice of the US-Israeli alliance against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, I started thinking of that.
The events that influenced me directly trace back to 1982 and subsequent events when the United States gave permission to the Israelis to invade Lebanon, with the aid of the sixth US fleet.
At those difficult moments, many meanings that are hard to describe went on in my mind. However, these meanings produced an overwhelming feeling to reject injustice and generated a strong determination to punish the unjust ones.
While I was looking at those destroyed towers in Lebanon, it occurred to me to punish the unjust one in a similar manner by destroying towers in the United States so that it would feel some of what we felt and to be deterred from killing our children and women...
We did not find it difficult to deal with Bush and his administration, because it is similar to regimes in our countries, half of which are governed by the military and the other half of which are governed by the sons of kings and presidents; and we have a long experience with them.
In both categories, you find many who are characterised by hubris, arrogance, greed, and unlawful acquisition of money. This similarity transpired since Bush Senior's visit to the region.
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steverino said:
Darth, Everyone knows that Arab discontent is cultural and would occur with or without Israel's existance. Many hate each other. IOW, if all was logical, Arabs would be content with the US because we buy their oil and support their economies, in addition to supporting Egypt and Turkey as we do Israel. But they are not. Throw in that we are a successful, non-Muslim super power and they'd hate us even without Israel in the equation.

As I see it, Palestine is a massive symbol of failure to seize opportunities for prosperity and righteousness.
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Symbols are not a substitute for the truth, like the way the symbol of the WTC towers figured in some of the pre Iraq war hype. So with Israel, as a symbol, to hang one's general anti Western hat on. It need not be "The Truth" in order to be effective.

The "hate us anyway" may be a stretch, since I think "dislike us for different reasons, and with a different intensity" fits slightly better, but now I am nit picking about word smithery. There is more than a crumb of truth in your assessment: Palestine is a massive symbol of failure to seize opportunities for prosperity and righteousness.
What is unfortunate, with bloody consequences, is that its symbolic value morphs to suit the needs of whoever is working an agenda.

DR
 
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steverino said:
You mean the wise words of the terrorists who killed themselves, and the others, on 9/11? What did they say? I care.
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I think you just broke the needle on my sarcasm detector. ;)

As regards the 19 suicidal attackers on 9-11, and their words, their actions spoke louder than their words, the way a thunder clap is louder than a fart.

They also demonstrated three things:

Then knew what they would fight for
The knew what they would kill for
The knew what they would die for

If you, or I, or anyone opposing such people has not yet grappled with those three questions, and come up with solid answers, such martyrs, however we assess or deride their mental state, tend to have a tactical advantage.

DR
 
thinkingaboutit said:
These are Bin Laden's words...

"Your security is in your own hands."
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What exactly is the follow-up on this?

We need to do what terrorists demand to avoid attacks?


Is someone contending that doing what they say will *decrease* the number of threats?
 
NoZed Avenger said:
What exactly is the follow-up on this?

We need to do what terrorists demand to avoid attacks?


Is someone contending that doing what they say will *decrease* the number of threats?
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What must follow is Americans owning their foreign policy.

If the demands are reasonable then there is a way to peace.

Bin Laden has made peace overtures. Are you aware of that?
 
thinkingaboutit said:
What must follow is Americans owning their foreign policy.

If the demands are reasonable then there is a way to peace.

Bin Laden has made peace overtures. Are you aware of that?
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He is the leader of what legitimate nation state? You will note that Osama, a relative of the Saudi royalty, and scion of a Saudi construction magnate, was exiled from his homeland for bickering with the King on the King's policy to cooperate with the US, with an eye toward

Regional stability

Countering Iran.

In other words, who died and made Osama king, of anywhere?

DR
 
Darth Rotor said:
He is the leader of what legitimate nation state? You will note that Osama, a relative of the Saudi royalty, and scion of a Saudi construction magnate, was exiled from his homeland for bickering with the King on the King's policy to cooperate with the US, with an eye toward

Regional stability

Countering Iran.

In other words, who died and made Osama king, of anywhere?

DR
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Isn't it ironic that IRAN actually IS a democracy? :rolleyes:

Oh well, they have a fanatic, faithful, war-mongering leader, don't they? :rolleyes:
 
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