Libertarian Hero Ron Paul Blames US for 9/11

[Oliver]

Do you have a link to that estimate yet?

I have: But let me here your double-moral first:

Let's say the Arabs would place an embargo on Canada and let's say that 10000 Canadians die because they couldn't get their required, foreign Medicine. Who would you think would be responsible for these deaths?

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's true - if we had let the Nazis finish what they started there would have been no Jews left to found the state of Israel.

And the Ottomans would rule it instead, as well as having Mecca and Medina. I'm not an expert on that period, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the Arabs didn't particularly care for Turkish rule.

 

[WildCat]

I have: But let me here your double-moral first:

Let's say the Arabs would place an embargo on Canada and let's say that 10000 Canadians die because they couldn't get their required, foreign Medicine. Who would you think would be responsible for these deaths?

Stop ignoring the context Oliver - no country deprived Saddam of food and medicine. Saddam deprived Iraq of food and medicine.

 

[Pardalis]

I have: But let me here your double-moral first:

Let's say the Arabs would place an embargo on Canada and let's say that 10000 Canadians die because they couldn't get their required, foreign Medicine. Who would you think would be responsible for these deaths?

It depends on the reasons for the embargo. If Canada's PM actions was the cause, I'd say it was his fault.

Then I'd leave Canada.

Now about that million?

 

[Tony]

I think the US is definately responsible for its policies in the Middle East, everybody is responsible for their actions. But I'll be damned if I'm going to say the US is responsible for 9/11.

Al Qaeda is.

It's not either/or.

 

[steverino]

Stop ignoring the context Oliver - no country deprived Saddam of food and medicine. Saddam deprived Iraq of food and medicine.

Finally some clarity. And "we" are not killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq. Fighting factions, and Iranian insurgents are. Blame America First strikes again.

 

[WildCat]

Now about that million?

Funny thing about that million - that's nearly 100,000 deaths a year from the embargo, wildly exceeding the yearly toll from the current war. So if you believe the 1 million number, you should welcome the curent war, no?

 

[Oliver]

Spell it out Oliver - what exactly did we "do over there"?

Helped to overthrow the old Iraqi regime and supported Saddams Party.
Gave ingridients for WMD's to Saddam while knowing that he uses them against the Kurds.
Bombing of the Medicine Factory during the Clinton Era.
Raised distrust because the relationship to Israel. (Don't comment - I'm for interference in a peaceful way instead an aggressive one)
Trained and armed the Mujahedeen that later splitted and became Al Qaida.
Was a driving Force for the Iraq-Embargo.
Lied themselves into Iraq without evidence.

More?

 

[WildCat]

Finally some clarity. And "we" are not killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq. Fighting factions, and Iranian insurgents are. Blame America First strikes again.

Get with the bandwagon steverino - Iran just want all the children of the world to join hands and dance and sing songs, and they would never, ever try to project their influence to other countries (say, by arming, funding, and training terrorists in the PA, Lebanon, Iraq, etc etc) to do bad things. Only America does something that evil!

 

[steverino]

And the Ottomans would rule it instead, as well as having Mecca and Medina. I'm not an expert on that period, but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the Arabs didn't particularly care for Turkish rule.

Which supports Wildcat's claim to the degree that, even without the Jews in the equation, there would still be plenty of violence in "The Sandbox."

 

[Oliver]

It depends on the reasons for the embargo. If Canada's PM actions was the cause, I'd say it was his fault.

Then I'd leave Canada.

Now about that million?

Pick one source:
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=%22iraq+embargo%22+million&btnG=Suche&meta=

 

[Darth Rotor]

BS! But nice sidestepping on inconvenient issues. You completely ignore to address what Ron Paul meant. What do YOU think did he mean by saying

"They attacked us because WE ARE OVER THERE".
"What would WE think if China would do this to us?"

He is right.

Paul's point is that American policy contributed to the reaction, which I don't dispute, and which you cannot understand that I don't dispute, even though I put it in caps. What you failed at was to understand the word Responsible. Like I said, Magwa understands English very well, Oliver sucks ass at it.

We, the US, have been is Asia for over a hundred years. We have been in Japan for about 60, in Korea for about 50.

China has not attacked us yet, even though we are "over there" in that area of the world. You cannot use a broad sound byte like that and pretend that you are making a point, since you are not.

What is your problem, Oliver? Aching for an America bashing session? Bored at work?

DR

 

[billydkid]

I see that Fox news did their typically masterful hatchet job on Ron Paul. It is so enervating to see people with no integrity whatsoever use their bully pulpit to disparage a person with complete integrity. Even SC knows exactly what Ron Paul was saying. He doesn't like what Ron Paul says, so he dissembles about what Ron Paul really said and transforms it into something which everyone would find offensive and responds to that. Just like Guilliani.

The fact is the Arab nations hate us because of our policies in the region and not because of our freedoms (which is among the more stupid lines I have ever heard.) While I support the US policy in regard to Israel, there are a number of other policies which have nothing to do with supporting Israel. Yes, the people who slammed planes into the towers are responsible for killing all those people, but the hatred that inspired them to do it is the result of US meddling in the region. I don't know, it may be that our support for Israel alone would have been enough to inspire enough hatred for Muslims to attack us, but I guess we can't ever know that in as much as we did so much other stuff over there for them to hate us for.

 

[Solitaire]

He is running as a GOP candidate in order to avoid the embarassment of getting 0% of the vote, as his predecessors have. But this is his plan to win the presidency?

Certainly not. Low numbers in politics for libertarians is like low scores for golfers.

 

[Pardalis]

While I support the US policy in regard to Israel, there are a number of other policies which have nothing to do with supporting Israel. Yes, the people who slammed planes into the towers are responsible for killing all those people, but the hatred that inspired them to do it is the result of US meddling in the region. I don't know, it may be that our support for Israel alone would have been enough to inspire enough hatred for Muslims to attack us, but I guess we can't ever know that in as much as we did so much other stuff over there for them to hate us for.

Then Germany is the real responsible, after all, they were the ones who wanted to exterminate the Jews, which lead to the creation of Israel in the first place.

 

[WildCat]

Helped to overthrow the old Iraqi regime and supported Saddams Party.

Nonsense, Saddam came to power without any help at all from the US. In fact, his primary arms suppliers and influence was to USSR, Stalin was a hero to him. please retract this claim.

Gave ingridients for WMD's to Saddam while knowing that he uses them against the Kurds.

False.

Bombing of the Medicine Factory during the Clinton Era.

Wait a minute, is this the infamous episode where after the bombing someone spray-painted (in English) "Baby Milk Factory" on the chemical arms facility?

Raised distrust because the relationship to Israel. (Don't comment - I'm for interference in a peaceful way instead an aggressive one)

I won't apologize for getting in the way of Israel's genocidal neighbors goals.

Trained and armed the Mujahedeen that later splitted and became Al Qaida.

False, the US armed and trained indigenous Afghani warlords. OBL and the Arab fighters were supplied and funded through other Arab states and individuals. And if your accusation was true that would hardly be a reason for 9/11, would it?

Was a driving Force for the Iraq-Embargo.

Put in place to compel Saddam to comply with the peace treaty.

Lied themselves into Iraq without evidence.

It's not a lie if you believe it, and virtually every country (including Germany btw) believed it through their own intelligence sources.

More?

If you have any that actually hold water post them, otherwise research the actual history of the situation.

 

[Oliver]

Paul's point is that American policy contributed to the reaction, which I don't dispute, and which you cannot understand that I don't dispute, even though I put it in caps. What you failed at was to understand the word Responsible. Like I said, Magwa understands English very well, Oliver sucks ass at it.

We, the US, have been is Asia for over a hundred years. We have been in Japan for about 60, in Korea for about 50.

China has not attacked us yet, even though we are "over there" in that area of the world. You cannot use a broad sound byte like that and pretend that you are making a point, since you are not.

What is your problem, Oliver? Aching for an America bashing session? Bored at work?

DR

My Problem is that people like Giuliani can't tell the truth the way it is. The Media should have debunked this dumb "Hate our Freedoms" Bull*hit a loooong time ago instead propagandizing it.

Another Problem is the Iraq War. But just look away and let's throw some bombs if there are complaints. It's so easy on your side of the fence instead understanding the other side, too - isn't it? Double-Moral.

 

[steverino]

Propping up Israel, to the tune of 5-10 billion dollars per year of US tax revenue is massively antithetical to small government, stay out of others' business, sensibilities.

It isn't that far a reach to trace a root cause of the US being a target to general Arab discontent, of which Israel is a massive symbol.

DR

Darth, Everyone knows that Arab discontent is cultural and would occur with or without Israel's existance. Many hate each other. IOW, if all was logical, Arabs would be content with the US because we buy their oil and support their economies, in addition to supporting Egypt and Turkey as we do Israel. But they are not. Throw in that we are a successful, non-Muslim super power and they'd hate us even without Israel in the equation.

As I see it, Palestine is a massive symbol of failure to seize opportunities for prosperity and righteousness. And its Arab neighbors show their love by keeping them in poverty to exploit this symbol.

 

[WildCat]

Certainly not. Low numbers in politics for libertarians is like low scores for golfers.

From the link:

First Choice for 2008 Republican Nomination
Based on Republicans/Republican leaners
May 10-13, 2007
%​

Rudy Giuliani

29​

John McCain

23​

Fred Thompson

12​

Mitt Romney

8​

Newt Gingrich

6​

Sam Brownback

2​

Tommy Thompson

1​

Mike Huckabee

1​

Tom Tancredo

1​

George Pataki

1​

Duncan Hunter

*​

Jim Gilmore

*​

Chuck Hagel

*​

Ron Paul

0​

​

Other

2​

None

5​

All/any

0​

No opinion

8​

* Less than 0.5%

 

[billydkid]

From the link:

First Choice for 2008 Republican Nomination
Based on Republicans/Republican leaners
May 10-13, 2007
%​

Rudy Giuliani

29​

John McCain

23​

Fred Thompson

12​

Mitt Romney

8​

Newt Gingrich

6​

Sam Brownback

2​

Tommy Thompson

1​

Mike Huckabee

1​

Tom Tancredo

1​

George Pataki

1​

Duncan Hunter

*​

Jim Gilmore

*​

Chuck Hagel

*​

Ron Paul

0​

Other

2​

None

5​

All/any

0​

No opinion

8​

* Less than 0.5%

Oh Good! The laughing dog!!! Great stuff. I'm a little disappointed it didn't come from CS though.