Another Fine Peer Reviewed Letter in JONES

Brainster

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Here's another example of what passes for peer-reviewed work at the Journal of 9-11 Studies (JONES).

John C. Ekonomou, a lawyer with some impressive credentials (BA Chicago, JD Michigan) "proves" that Dick Cheney must have issued a standdown order. The proof goes along these lines:

1. General Arnold of NORAD told the 9-11 Commission that the shoot down order was not issued even at the point the Pentagon was struck by Flight 77, so they could have shot the plane down.

2. But according to Norm Mineta... you know the deal.

3. Ergo, since there was no shoot down order, the only order that the young Marine could have been asking for confirmation of, is a stand-down order.

4. And the shoot down order must have been meant for Flight 93.

Ready, aim....
 
Yay, I'm just itching to get in another tussle with spoony over at SLC about the meaning of "peer reviewed." NOT.
 
Brainster,

I am the author of the paper you refer to in your post. A few comments:

1. You should re-read carefully the credentials that I have listed. I never state that my BA is from "Chicago" or that my JD is from "Michigan". A careful reading of the first page should reveal this fact to you.

2. The paper that you read was a draft copy that was inadvertedly placed on the website. The full paper, which is 18 pages in length, should be on the website later today. It is much more detailed than what you have already read.

3. The paper shows that no shootdown orders were issued prior to 9:37 a.m., the time of the Pentagon crash. This is an easy concept to grasp. If the US Air Force and the 9/11 Commission and Dick Cheney and General Arnold and George Bush all say so, I guess we can agree that this is the truth.

4. Norman Mineta's character, honesty, and integrity have never been challenged in almost 40 years of public life, while Dick "Mr. Military Deferment" Cheney has been shown to have questionable honesty and integrity at best. Cheney's lies about the nuclear capability of Iraq before the war, his arms dealings to Iraq and Iran, his dealings with Halliburton and government contracts, etc. But we should believe him because he won an election? Quite the contrary.

5. The U.S. Secret Service is flat out lying in this case. Does the U.S. Secret Service have more credibility than Norman Mineta? That is debatable. Of course, we can't question the agents because they are sworn to secrecy. National security and all that. What agent is going to stick to his guns and say that the log is wrong? An agent that wants his career to effectively end in that agency.

6. Your post implies is that Mineta is lying. PROVE IT THEN. Show me other instances where he has lied, or cheated. Show me why he is lying about Cheney being in the PEOC in this particular case.

I guess the only argument is: Cheney says he wasn't there, the USSS says he wasn't there. Oh...duh...that means he wasn't there. Oh, how could I be so wrong? I mean, Cheney wouldn't lie to us, neither would a law enforcement agency under his command. I mean, he is a pillar of the community. Please, spare us, the manure is starting to pile up.

7. Mineta's version of what happened is very credible. The fact that its truth indicates that Vice President Cheney has committed TREASON, and should be tried and convicted for that TREASON is just a bad break for Cheney.

Tha fact is, there are no shoot down orders issued prior to Flight 93 going down. The orders Cheney referred to in the PEOC were stand down orders, because Cheney said "they still stand" and no shoot down occurred. No shoot down occurred because NONE WAS ORDERED, according to Cheney's generals, as well as George Bush.

Cheney is a traitor to the Constitution and the people of the United States of America.
 
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Is "shootdown" the only possible order that Cheney could have made?

Why do you believe all this, when Minetta, who was there apparently does not? Do you know more about what went on there than he does?
 
The existence of the Orders were directly related to the subject matter of the moment; i.e. the fact that Flight 77 was coming toward Washington D.C.

If the orders had nothing to do with the subject matter, I guess you are right.

The Orders were NOT shoot down orders, because the military says they didn't receive any until after 10:00 am. If they were shootdown orders and it took over 45 minutes to get to the General, and you believe that, then give me what you are smoking.

If they were stand down orders, then they were followed, because the plane wasn't shot down, and there is much evidence that interception (not shoot down) of the airliner was slow at best.

Process of elimination.

Now, it is possible that he was referring to the pre-existing FAA protocols which changed June 1, 2001, which gave Rumsfeld the authority to shoot down. The 'orders" could have been "don't do anything until Rummy gives me the OK". Not likely.

Mineta did not say that he did not believe that the only order that could have been given was a shoot down order. Where did you come up with that? Has he stated as such?
 
i just want to know why a Lawyer has any "credentials" on commenting about politics and procedures by entities he is not familiar with or apart of.
 
atty1chgo said:
4. Norman Mineta's character, honesty, and integrity have never been challenged in almost 40 years of public life
Click to expand...

How often does the CT mindset assert that the sheep just believe what they are told? How often does their case revolve around believing some random person who is somehow more trustworthy than thousands of government employees and eye witnesses?

In order for the 911 CT's to be true, thousands of people whose character, honesty and integrity have never been questioned must not only be lying, but must be mass murderers.
 
The existence of the Orders were directly related to the subject matter of the moment; i.e. the fact that Flight 77 was coming toward Washington D.C.
Click to expand...

Rubbish because Delta 1989, assumed hyjacked by Boston control was aproximately 50 miles out Cleveland at same time. Trouble is that aircraft fit Cheneys timeline and not yours.
 
atty1chgo said:
Mineta did not say that he did not believe that the only order that could have been given was a shoot down order. Where did you come up with that? Has he stated as such?
Click to expand...
Mineta clearly told the 9/11 Commission that he assumed the order being discussed was a shoot-down order. You've offered no contrary evidence.
 
How do you know? You don't know me at all. You don't what I am or am not familiar with, so your comment has no weight.
 
I never claimed to offer contrary evidence. The poster said this: Why do you believe all this, when Minetta, who was there apparently does not?

I was replying to the poster.
 
atty1chgo said:
I never claimed to offer contrary evidence. The poster said this: Why do you believe all this, when Minetta, who was there apparently does not?

I was replying to the poster.
Click to expand...
You should use the "quote" button when replying to specific posts. That way people know who you're responding to.

And the poster (JamesB) asked you why you believe there was a stand-down order, when Mineta does not.
 
So there are thousands of eyewitnesses and government employees who know about these particular set of facts: the conversation in the PEOC - than Mineta? Please explain that one.
 
Nobody here thinks Mineta was lying. People do think that in the confusion of the day, like so many other people Mineta misunderstood what precisely was happening.

Do you think Mineta still sticks hard and fast to his story? Do you think he would stoutly argue with Cheney or might he not say "huh, I guess I misunderstood what was going on"?
 
atty1chgo said:
Delta 89 was never 50 miles from DC. Check your facts.
Click to expand...
The distances given in the PEOC were projected distances, based on last known course and speed - not actual radar returns. So the actual location of Delta 89 is irrelevant.
 
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