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What evidence is there for evolution being non-random?

Can you describe the difference between "intelligent elements" and those which are not?

The players are (at least one would hope) and, in the case of backgommon, the dice, the tokens, and the game board are not. That one can apply strategy to winning almost all games (roulette being a notable exception) should suggest that most are not based purely on chance.
 
The players are (at least one would hope) and, in the case of backgommon, the dice, the tokens, and the game board are not. That one can apply strategy to winning almost all games (roulette being a notable exception) should suggest that most are not based purely on chance.

What quality is it which you can call "intelligent"? Why can other things not have it? How you decide what is "intelligent" and what is not?

You seem to be appealing to the ghost in the machine.
 
What quality is it which you can call "intelligent"? Why can other things not have it? How you decide what is "intelligent" and what is not?

You seem to be appealing to the ghost in the machine.

And you seem yo be asking me to define something that, among others, the fields of psychology and neuroscience haven't been able to describe adequately or consistently.

Is that really fair?
 
To avoid long windedness and going into each example, why did you chose only illustrations including independent random variables to illustrate a problem including heredity.
He didn't.

Are you sure it's "long windedness and going into each example" you're avoiding, rather than, for example, the point?
 
And you seem yo be asking me to define something that, among others, the fields of psychology and neuroscience haven't been able to describe adequately or consistently.

Is that really fair?

Yes, it is fair. Either provide a definition, or don't use it as your argument if any ambiguity exists. The argument, as best as I can tell, is that evolution is random because it includes random elements. But then why is backgammon not random?
 
Yes, it is fair. Either provide a definition, or don't use it as your argument if any ambiguity exists. The argument, as best as I can tell, is that evolution is random because it includes random elements. But then why is backgammon not random?

As luck would have it, I do not know how to play backgammon, so I cannot answer your question in the way you want me to answer it. However, I can give you an example with a class of game I know how to play (i.e., card games), but first I think that it is important to recognize an important aspect about all games that humans play: the rules by which one play are decided purely as a convention of playing the game and there is no reason that you have to play by them except perhaps that you might not be playing the same game if you were playing by different rules. Evolution has no such conventions that limit the physical possibility except the laws of physics themselves. Thus, it is possible to have a duplicated genome in the game of evolution and still play the game where as the analogous situation of having twice as many cards of the same number and type (this is for the purpose of maximizing the number of points of correspondence between the analogs but need not be the case, especially as organisms with duplicate genomes start to diverge) would automatically disqualify you form play in any card game I know how to play. Similarly, aside from the fact that not all pairs are equally likely to mate, there are no rules forbidding individuals of the same species from mating with each other in the game of evolution, whereas in a card game one is only able to exchange cards with other player specifically designated by the rules of the game. The rules for cards-in-hand, card exchange, and other conventions of the game makes it possible to apply strategy to winning. In fact if you cheat, say by counting cards, you can guarantee your victory. The point is that it doesn't seem possible to bias evolution in the same way that you can human games. There are very few conventions which individuals have to follow in evolution; thus, all advantages you gain are "fair" advantages which is not the case with human games.
 
As luck would have it, I do not know how to play backgammon, so I cannot answer your question in the way you want me to answer it. However, I can give you an example with a class of game I know how to play (i.e., card games), but first I think that it is important to recognize an important aspect about all games that humans play: the rules by which one play are decided purely as a convention of playing the game and there is no reason that you have to play by them except perhaps that you might not be playing the same game if you were playing by different rules. Evolution has no such conventions that limit the physical possibility except the laws of physics themselves. Thus, it is possible to have a duplicated genome in the game of evolution and still play the game where as the analogous situation of having twice as many cards of the same number and type (this is for the purpose of maximizing the number of points of correspondence between the analogs but need not be the case, especially as organisms with duplicate genomes start to diverge) would automatically disqualify you form play in any card game I know how to play. Similarly, aside from the fact that not all pairs are equally likely to mate, there are no rules forbidding individuals of the same species from mating with each other in the game of evolution, whereas in a card game one is only able to exchange cards with other player specifically designated by the rules of the game. The rules for cards-in-hand, card exchange, and other conventions of the game makes it possible to apply strategy to winning. In fact if you cheat, say by counting cards, you can guarantee your victory. The point is that it doesn't seem possible to bias evolution in the same way that you can human games. There are very few conventions which individuals have to follow in evolution; thus, all advantages you gain are "fair" advantages which is not the case with human games.

Ok, so your analogy isn't particularly good, is it?

The 'game' of evolution is very simple. Organisms which are less fit give fewer genes to the next generation. What is random about that?
 
Ok, so your analogy isn't particularly good, is it?

The 'game' of evolution is very simple. Organisms which are less fit give fewer genes to the next generation. What is random about that?

The whole analogy of games is not good.

The individuals with fitter fitness complement are only more likely, but not guaranteed, to pass on that fitness complement.
 
The whole analogy of games is not good.

The individuals with fitter fitness complement are only more likely, but not guaranteed, to pass on that fitness complement.

It doesn't matter. It is not random which individuals live and which die. Alleles with lower fitnesses decrease in frequency over time in a popluation. Selection works in a completely determanistic manner. Similarly, the game of backgammon uses random dice rolls to make strategic plays, the latter of which is definately not random. If evolution is random because it includes random elements, so is any game which includes any random elements.
 
The individuals with fitter fitness complement are only more likely, but not guaranteed, to pass on that fitness complement.
Yes, which is what I think I pointed out, with diagrams and links to the math, on the third post on this thread.

But if someone goes around saying "evolution is random" on this basis, then this is a fairly significant lie.
 
As luck would have it, I do not know how to play backgammon, so I cannot answer your question in the way you want me to answer it. However, I can give you an example with a class of game I know how to play (i.e., card games), but first I think that it is important to recognize an important aspect about all games that humans play: the rules by which one play are decided purely as a convention of playing the game and there is no reason that you have to play by them except perhaps that you might not be playing the same game if you were playing by different rules. Evolution has no such conventions that limit the physical possibility except the laws of physics themselves.
I'll just sit here quietly while you debunk yourself, shall I?

Thus, it is possible to have a duplicated genome in the game of evolution and still play the game where as the analogous situation of having twice as many cards of the same number and type (this is for the purpose of maximizing the number of points of correspondence between the analogs but need not be the case, especially as organisms with duplicate genomes start to diverge) would automatically disqualify you form play in any card game I know how to play.
Yes, this is a difference between a card game and evolution.

But I don't see how it is meant to be a point towards whatever it is that you're defending.

Which is what?

Similarly, aside from the fact that not all pairs are equally likely to mate, there are no rules forbidding individuals of the same species from mating with each other in the game of evolution, whereas in a card game one is only able to exchange cards with other player specifically designated by the rules of the game.
And I can't make babies with another man, although some have PM'd me offers.

What's your point?

The rules for cards-in-hand, card exchange, and other conventions of the game makes it possible to apply strategy to winning. In fact if you cheat, say by counting cards, you can guarantee your victory. The point is that it doesn't seem possible to bias evolution in the same way that you can human games.
Natural selection, remember?

There are very few conventions which individuals have to follow in evolution; thus, all advantages you gain are "fair" advantages which is not the case with human games.
Please explain what you mean.
 
Can you describe the difference between "intelligent elements" and those which are not?

Now the thread is hotting up!

I think most would agree that the theory of natural selection, as it stands today, doesn't have "intelligent elements" within it of course. I've not really looked into what all this ID stuff is trying to say but it would appear, at first glance, that proponents of the idea of "intelligent design" are in part saying that organisms appear intelligently designed. So they should then define what they mean by those terms. I suspect that a certain percentage of proponents of ID entertain the idea of an anthropomorphic intelligent designer that exists outside of the process of evolution in its own right. But that, of course, is not a scientifically feasable concept.

So I got thinking, science has two components - observation and theory, and its not always clear which comes first. We normally identify traits as adaptative after they have been selected. But what if it could be shown that adaptations can precede or anticipate their selection in some way? What would it mean for the ID debate?
 
Now the thread is hotting up!

I think most would agree that the theory of natural selection, as it stands today, doesn't have "intelligent elements" within it of course. I've not really looked into what all this ID stuff is trying to say but it would appear, at first glance, that proponents of the idea of "intelligent design" are in part saying that organisms appear intelligently designed. So they should then define what they mean by those terms. I suspect that a certain percentage of proponents of ID entertain the idea of an anthropomorphic intelligent designer that exists outside of the process of evolution in its own right. But that, of course, is not a scientifically feasable concept.

So I got thinking, science has two components - observation and theory, and its not always clear which comes first. We normally identify traits as adaptative after they have been selected. But what if it could be shown that adaptations can precede or anticipate their selection in some way? What would it mean for the ID debate?

If this were the case, it would mean that there was a level of control over which mutations occur in a genome. I'm not sure what that would mean for ID, and as interesting as it would be, I wouldn't worry about it untilit is actually found to be so.
 
Thaiboxerken said:
Seems to me that some people want to call an entire process random if any part of that process has a random element. It's like calling a person who told a lie, one time, a liar but not calling him a truth-sayer even though he's told the truth more often.
This is because a process with one or more random inputs is called a random process or stochastic process. If it ain't completely deterministic, then it's random. But it is misleading not to clarify exactly what's going on with evolution, even if called a random process.

None of this linguistic masturbation is going to convince a creationist anyway.

~~ Paul
 
So I got thinking, science has two components - observation and theory, and its not always clear which comes first. We normally identify traits as adaptative after they have been selected. But what if it could be shown that adaptations can precede or anticipate their selection in some way?
"Precede", yes. A trait cannot be selected for before it actually exists.

"Anticipate"? A trait anticipating selection before it exists ... ? What?

I think you should think this through more carefully.
 
If this were the case, it would mean that there was a level of control over which mutations occur in a genome. I'm not sure what that would mean for ID, and as interesting as it would be, I wouldn't worry about it untilit is actually found to be so.

It would be pretty groundbreaking stuff if it were found to be so. It makes me wonder if anyone has tried. Perhaps they have, found nothing and retreated in embarrassed silence. Or perhaps the proof lies dormant, supressed by those tyrannous journal editors. ;)
 
None of this linguistic masturbation is going to convince a creationist anyway.
On the contrary.

Have you looked at creationist garbage? Do you know how much of it is based on "linguistic masturbation"?

You could sell this "evolution is random" gibberish to fundies like it was pornography.
 
It would be pretty groundbreaking stuff if it were found to be so. It makes me wonder if anyone has tried. Perhaps they have, found nothing and retreated in embarrassed silence. Or perhaps the proof lies dormant, supressed by those tyrannous journal editors. ;)
Or maybe dimwitted paranoid conspiracy theories aren't true.

Who can say?
 

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