Chemtrails

[TjW]

A few things I've observed about "chemtrail" believers over the past few years:

They seem to have one method of distinguishing a "normal" contrail from a "chemtrail"- persistence. In the chemmie catechism, "normal" contrails dissipate in a matter of minutes, so any contrail which lasts longer, spreads or winds up as part of a newly-formed layer of cirrus clouds must be a chemtrail.

The thing is, this behavior has been observed as far back as WWII, when high-performance aircraft etched the skies of Europe with thousands upon thousands of contrails. I personally remember observing exactly the same thing- a set of five contrails which within a few hours had become identifiable lines in a layer of cirrus- on a nice fall day in 1968. The incident stuck in my memory because I happened to point it out to a classmate who was a black-belt meteorology buff and my, how he did go on about how and why clouds form and dissipate.

If persistence is the diagnostic feature of a "chemtrail", then an inescapable conclusion is that the eevil gummint conspiracy has been spraying us for nearly 40 years at minimum and perhaps for as long as 60 + years. It must not be working very quickly.

At least since 1942. And Antoine Saint-Exupery must have been in on it, because in Flight to Arras, he put in a paragraph or two remarking on the contrails of his plane, and how they could, under the right conditions, expand to cover the whole sky.

 

[EternalSceptic]

At least since 1942. And Antoine Saint-Exupery must have been in on it, because in Flight to Arras, he put in a paragraph or two remarking on the contrails of his plane, and how they could, under the right conditions, expand to cover the whole sky.

After an observation I made about an hour ago I must say I can understand why technically uneducated people "fall" for the chemtrail "theory".

It was five o'clock in the morning and the sun just raising. I could see two airplanes, one flying roughly west, the other roughly south in the same area of the sky. While the plane flying west had a long, persistent contrail the contrail of the other dissipated almost immediately.

Of course there is a very simple explanation:

I live in an area where there are three international airports within a range of no more than 100 miles and several "air streets" are crossing above my place.
The plane heading west was very high and on it's way from a distant to another distant airport flying at cruising power, the other was lower (but still well above 10000 ft) and had reduced power because it was approaching an airport in the vicinity (VIE, abt 50 miles away). The different behavior of the contrails was due to different altitude and different throttle settings. Different types of engines may as well have played some role.

Given the fact that it is not easy to estimate the altitude of an airplane the different contrail behavior could easily misinterpreted by technically naive peole

 

[MRC_Hans]

What is "real history?" The stuff in the history text books? Can it change with further research and analysis? New facts being discovered?

And isn't "history" open to interpretation?

Not when it comes to contrails. Contrails have been know ever since man started to use high altitude aircraft, which means ca. 1920. During WW2, the skies over Europe were criss-crossed with contrails from the bomber streams.

Contrails isn't history, it's physics.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

After an observation I made about an hour ago I must say I can understand why technically uneducated people "fall" for the chemtrail "theory".

It was five o'clock in the morning and the sun just raising. I could see two airplanes, one flying roughly west, the other roughly south in the same area of the sky. While the plane flying west had a long, persistent contrail the contrail of the other dissipated almost immediately.

Of course there is a very simple explanation:

I live in an area where there are three international airports within a range of no more than 100 miles and several "air streets" are crossing above my place.
The plane heading west was very high and on it's way from a distant to another distant airport flying at cruising power, the other was lower (but still well above 10000 ft) and had reduced power because it was approaching an airport in the vicinity (VIE, abt 50 miles away). The different behavior of the contrails was due to different altitude and different throttle settings. Different types of engines may as well have played some role.

Given the fact that it is not easy to estimate the altitude of an airplane the different contrail behavior could easily misinterpreted by technically naive peole

A slight correction: The persistence of the contrail does not depend on the throttle setting or engine type (at least only marginally), it has everything to do with the conditions in the particular altitude of the plane.

But, as you mention, it is impossible to judge the altitude of a high-flying plane, even within miles, and since a few hundred yards can make a profound difference in contrail behaviour (there are various tresholds for condensation and evaporation), thw planes that seem to be in exactly the same altitude can show very different contrails.

All this is very likely Greek to people with little knowledge of technology and meteorology, and that is fine. But then why do they (some of them) insist on making their own conclusions? If you have little knowledge of some area, you must simply trust those who know.

Anyway, it is not from the study of the skies you can realize that the chemtrail theory is bogus. It is, if you think about it, probably the most bizarre of all CTs:

Some operator (be it the NWO or whomever) runs a clandestine operation to spray more or less the entire globe several times a week, for whatever evil purpose. Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD. It has gone on for decades, but not ONE of all these people, although they themselves and their families and friends are among the victims, has EVER spilled the beans.

.... I mean, for any normally thinking person, the whole thing should stop right there. You don't have to know a thing about planes, clouds, or condensation physics. You don't even have to go outdoors.

Hans

 

[Regnad Kcin]

...And again, no I do not buy into the chemtrail thing. (Not yet!)

Well then hurry up and get with it, man! Time's a wastin'!

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Nobody has mentioned the theory that they are creating a grid of particles as part of some HAARP-based weapon system. Against we, the people. I remember reading something about that.

Oh, and then there's the theory that they are spraying to try to discover the particle grids that a foreign enemy has put in the atmosphere, for weaponized weather warfare against us.

Nobody has mentioned the theory that chemtrails are actually airplanes going number one because they just can't hold it until they make it back to the airport.

That stuff is out there. (I know, WAY out there).

Please send a postcard now and again.

 

[Tirdun]

A buddy and I tried to find the oddest online belief (CT or otherwise) a few years back, as a sort of contest. This was back in the heady days after the Y2K end of days turned out to be more about late night code searches and less about pale horses and brimstone.

At first it was fun, topping each other with dumber and dumber stuff. Oddball religions, stickers on the back of road signs pointing the way for UN NWO takeover armies (not kidding) and Planet X countdowns got played pretty early.

Then... then it got depressing. We'd still top each other occasionally, but it got harder and harder to objectively judge whether this end-days date setter was really crazier than the guy who insisted that all numbers / 0 == 1 or the "pyramid is a water pump" dude. Crazy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess, and we were beholding a whole lot of crazy. Very earnest (if lacking HTML design restraint) web pages full of crazy.

Eventually we called it off. Having turned the sharp spotlight onto humanity without being prepared for the reflected glare is an unsettling experience. I've since come to the conclusion that there is nothing so daft, so crazy, so inexplicably impossible that someone, somewhere won't believe wholeheartedly in it, and that quite honestly scares me. I must question my steadfast beliefs enough, I tell myself, not to fall into that trap.

 

[uk_dave]

Out of a world population of 6.5 billion, a couple of thousand whackjobs aint bad going for the human race.

It's rather like fetishes and pornography, it doesn't really matter how bizarre it is, there'll always be someone, somewhere who gets off on it.

 

[bje]

I wonder why the average Cter is too stupid to understand that the poison chentrails the government is spraying us with are also poisoning themselves...I guess CTs don't have to be logical

Shhhh....! Don't give away the government plot!

 

[EternalSceptic]

A slight correction: The persistence of the contrail does not depend on the throttle setting or engine type (at least only marginally), it has everything to do with the conditions in the particular altitude of the plane.

But, as you mention, it is impossible to judge the altitude of a high-flying plane, even within miles, and since a few hundred yards can make a profound difference in contrail behaviour (there are various tresholds for condensation and evaporation), thw planes that seem to be in exactly the same altitude can show very different contrails.

All this is very likely Greek to people with little knowledge of technology and meteorology, and that is fine. But then why do they (some of them) insist on making their own conclusions? If you have little knowledge of some area, you must simply trust those who know.

Anyway, it is not from the study of the skies you can realize that the chemtrail theory is bogus. It is, if you think about it, probably the most bizarre of all CTs:

Some operator (be it the NWO or whomever) runs a clandestine operation to spray more or less the entire globe several times a week, for whatever evil purpose. Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD. It has gone on for decades, but not ONE of all these people, although they themselves and their families and friends are among the victims, has EVER spilled the beans.

.... I mean, for any normally thinking person, the whole thing should stop right there. You don't have to know a thing about planes, clouds, or condensation physics. You don't even have to go outdoors.

Hans

Can it be, that a similar lack of imagination and understanding makes these people unable to even remotely estimate _how_ complex and therefore unlikely/impossible such a conspiracy is?

I made the experience, that for a majority of people, even well educated, correct logical deduction is totally impossible. Hoewever, they are convinced that their "logic" is error-free.

 

[Bobert]

How simple!

I think there is more to it than simply trails. From what I've read and seen in a couple documentaries. But I'm no Chemtrail-blazer.

Are any of you from Portland? I guess that's a "hotbed."

Have you ever noticed that every CT'er who believes this stuff claims that their area is the most effected?

So many of these CT'ers running around crying about chemtrails you would think that the government must have 100's of planes flying 24/7.

 

[steve s]

Have you ever noticed that every CT'er who believes this stuff claims that their area is the most effected?

It's even funnier when they say things like, "I've noticed that I'm coughing more today."

Steve S.

 

[steve s]

Such an operation will require thousands of planes, the cooperation of tens of thousands of crew, maintenance people, people producing and distributing whatever it is they spray, plus ALL air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Hans

I made a similar post in another thread a while back. You'd have to include the engineers who designed the spraying system into the plane, the people who built the plane. There'd have to be tanker trucks roaming our highways with this stuff. And there'd have to be those smaller tanker trucks at the airports to distribute the stuff among the planes. It's mind boggling that people can think this is all going on right under our noses.

Steve S.

 

[MRC_Hans]

It's even funnier when they say things like, "I've noticed that I'm coughing more today."

Steve S.

Especially as an aerosol released at 30.000ft will take more than a week to descend to surface level. And by that time, the persisting winds at high altitudes, which regularly exceed 100mph, will have blown them half-way around the globe. The very definition chemies use for a chemtrail (that it persists for some time) defeats its purpose. If it persists, it must be sinking very slowly, and then ......

Actually, it is even sillier: The only thing that can persist for any considerable time is a cloud phenomenon driven by the energy released by condensation. The released heat makes the air rise by convection, which sucks in new air from below, which releases new condensation, etc....

An aerosol will just disperse. No need to take my word for this; you can make a simpe experiment:

Take an aerosol can (a hair-spray is cheap and relatively harmless).
Pick out a high spot in a day with moderate wind, stand with your back to the wind, and spray downwind.
Observe the trail.

According to the chemies, you should see a long white (or whitish) trail that stretches downwind for as long as you care to spray, only slowly widening.

What you will observe is that a cloud that rapidly disperses, in a vee-shaped pattern and becomes too thin to see. That is how aerosols behave. They don't even look like contrails.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

I made a similar post in another thread a while back. You'd have to include the engineers who designed the spraying system into the plane, the people who built the plane. There'd have to be tanker trucks roaming our highways with this stuff. And there'd have to be those smaller tanker trucks at the airports to distribute the stuff among the planes. It's mind boggling that people can think this is all going on right under our noses.

Steve S.

Yeah. And loading stewards at airports. And various airport personnel who are not directly involved, but are bound to notice all those planes that are loaded from trucks or tankers. .. Subcontractors to the manufacturers of spraying material. Accountants reviewing their economy. Researchers who invented the stuff. Civil servants who'll have to approve funding. Politicians. Bankers. Plane spotters. Crew and passengers in other planes passing at high altitudes. Actually, before you are finished, we'll be at some 10% of the population.

Hans

 

[MG1962]

Well I for one can attest to the secret of chemtrails. At time I counted 27 of them in the sky at any one time while visiting Kansas last year

I had a great time, met a fantastic bunch of people and thought the USA was fascinating and an amazing place

Therefore I can only assume the chemtrails were responsible for this. Otherwise I should have encounted the despotic neocon world of modern America.

Ooops - I see the fatal flaw in my theory. The government was trying to do some good. Clearly we cant have that happening

 

[MRC_Hans]

Oh, btw: One of the chemie sites referenced in this thread claims that chemtrails (persistent contrails) are observed over all countries except China. I'm going to China next week. Will take some pictures of contrails.

Hans

 

[Civilized Worm]

Well, considering "history" is subjective<snip>

WHAT?

Ah, so you think we know the whole truth behind Watergate, Lewinsky, and Enron. It's nice for you that you have that safety net, only believing in the ones that HAVE been talked about, and "have come quickly to the light."

Dude, we know TOO MUCH about the Lewinsky affair! Read some of this if you'd don't value your sanity: http://www.rotten.com/library/history/political-scandal/lewinsky-affair/

 

[CaptainHair]

I'm getting married in August. My fiance has an uncle who, how shall I put this, is seriously whacked about chemtrails. If he wakes up with a stopped up nose, he will run to the door and look up into the sky. If he sees any white clouds (contrails or cumulus clouds!) he says "Yep, they're sprayin' hard today. Durn gubmint!" Then, he'll spend the rest of the day chatting with his chemtrail buddies. Now, he lives near both the Atlanta airport and Dobbins ARB but dismisses all this as 'collusion'.

Now, the question. Should I go through with the wedding? Of course, I will. It's just that I've never seen anyone with this kind of loony passion before. My fiance just ignores all the weird stuff. She is a Democrat, however. I'll bring her over to the dark side after we're married.

 

[Calcas]

Everybody has a crazy Uncle (or two.)

As long as your fiance knows, "Oh, that's just Uncle Harry" then I wouldn't be concerned.

Though the Democrat thing has me a bit worried...