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9/11 Physics from Non-Experts

You guys took the ridiculous egg analogy out of context and put the egg on sand. Is sand really the same as bedrock? You morons. This is all in the context of the world trade centers and some assumptions are made. Assumptions like the towers are firmly rooted into the bedrock. There's a reason they don't build buildings on sand.

You JREF people are just ridiculous. You'll twist anything and everything and take it all out of context. But in reality you are only kidding yourselves
Yowserrsserrs, you are wrong about that too. The egg was put on bed rock. The brick went from zero to faster, to bedrock stop. Please tell me why my bedrock model is not good enough for brick, egg, or even moose and squirrel. Where did yandros42 get his degree from? We need to remove accreditation now!


1244746422a7d27a22.jpg


As you see here the bedrock modeled as a brick pushes up, egg was pushed down, top brick was acted on by the gravity thing and the egg shell failed. Which part of F=0 did I mess up?

Actually our yandros41+0+1 may not understand energy and the real world. Maybe on paper F=0 works on the flat world of paper an pen.

Why does yandros42 ban everyone who loves his F=0 physics? Is the y-man really the physicsNAZI? NO FORCE = 0 FOR YOU!

As show here, when the lower support of the WTC, the fire weakened steel modeled as an egg, could no longer hold up the top of the WTC. Also we can model the initial fall as hitting the egg, the lower section and see as the lower section fails the upper section accelerates until it hits the ground.
 
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Physics on YouTube?

The momentum is what? You mean the momentum of the top falling on the bottom can not destroy the next floor? This is not yandros but a fellow honors physics expert.
"No the momentum is transferred into the ground" so you think if someone hit you in the head with a sledge hammer your feet will explode? I suggest you try this and let us know what happens. I've got $10 that says your head cracks before your feet. look up "inertia"
Did anyone see the base of the WTC explode when the top fell on the first section below? Is this a good question?

I will not want to see a head and feet if the sledge hammer if falling from 10 or 20 feet, and from 1300 feet I do not want to be within 600 feet, maybe 2500 feet when this demo takes place. A sledge hammer from 1300 feet just may explode your feet very shortly after passing through the head for towards the earth core. Where did we learn the momentum was all sucked up by the earth.

Yandros42 said -
The momentum of the initial collision between the falling mass and the undamaged structure is transferred into the earth. The force of the collision is clearly not great enough to damage the central support columns to a point where their structural resistance becomes null. This is apparent in the lack of buckling observed and the way the towers crumble rather than falling as a single mass. Please review my 4th video (debunking the debunkers) for a graphical explanation of this point.
Darn, he has debunked all with the earth eats up momentum and F=0. Debunked.

Is Yandros42 really Yandrewbob Wood, son of Judy Wood?

Yandros42 (2 days ago)
No idiot. The brick won't accelerate once it has reached the egg, because the net force is zero. The kinetic energy built up by the falling brick will most certainly shatter it. But if you were to take high speed recording of the brick smashing the egg you would find that the brick was not gaining velocity as it smashed the egg.
He is from down-under, down-under F=0 is correct those guys are upside down, even toilets flush the other way.
 
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Why do these things kept being drawn as if there was a big gap, and the top just hovering over the bottom? Did I miss some levitation event that day?
 
Yandros42 (46 minutes ago)
Yeah it amazes me. This is what mainstream science has come to because of egotistical fools. Although mainstream science and mainstream medicine were never really any good. Most of the modern world owes itself to the hard work of individuals shunned, attacked and degraded by people exactly like this. Most notably Einstein, Tesla, and Pasteur (the guy who more or less discovered bacteria is what makes us sick when we eat spoiled food.)
Yandros42 is now comparing himself to Einstein, Tesla, and Pasteur.

Yandros42 is more like Hitler and Dr. Goebbels spewing propaganda and lies about 9/11 and F=0ing up physics beyond recognition. Yandros42, by banning all comments, you are like a NAZI. Soon someone will post your junk where you can not ban real people from making intelligent posts about how dumb your physics lessons are. I am going to use your study in my class, and use you egg/F=0 for a lab where we calculate acceleration with high speed video, and use your banning as a lesson on propaganda and how NAZIs shaped opinion.

Someone can use you are an example of bad physics, example of censorship and propaganda. Plus more. You are a perfect example of a self appointed expert dolt. You are going to be real upset when your physics teacher points out you mistakes. Hope she is not Judy Wood.

Yandros42 (3 hours ago) marked as spam
On that note I'll happily ban/block all and any JREF people posting here. Because frankly I am sick of your rule8. If you want to argue the real physics go ahead. But all you do is setup strawmen arguments and take what I say out of context. You are a joke. You think this is what real science, real physics is about? No. It is a very simple force equation and half of you are too stupid to realize that. The other half have such bad psychological denial they can't accept anything as fact.
I used physics and energy to prove the WTC could fall and the collapse would only be 10 percent slower than free fall from the top of the WTC. Just to prove to myself. I was wondering what the speed should be since I found a few really dumb people saying stupid things and they called themselves, "truth". I found out they were making up stuff and telling lies, not even close to the truth. In the real world only some sections of the WTC hit the ground at 10 seconds or less. Most of the building hit the ground or came to rest much later, if up to 30 seconds is much later.
 
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It is a very simple force equation and half of you are too stupid to realize that.


And there we have his fundamental flaw.

Let me put this in a way he might understand. Everyone else, just ignore this next line:

It is NOT a very simple force equation and he is too stupid to realize that.

Equations such as he uses are nice, but they simply are not up to calculating such complex, real-world situations. The huge number of interactions in something like a building, let alone a building that is collapsing, simply can't be understood in terms of a "simple force equation".

Until he realizes that (and he never will) he'll just keep repeating his "Net Force is Zero" mantra, and his echo-chamber friends will keep reinforcing his beliefs.
 
:eek:

Are you now not making the same mistake as Yandros? Asuming a homogenous lower and upper structure? Next argument will be thermodynamics.
:covereyes
Please, NO...don't, No Yandrification of this problem.

If you are using this to represent one floor, OK
Agree? :)


Keeping Is Simple for yandeoS
I did mention that F1 would become smaller once the lower structure was damaged.

Where in God's name does he get that the momentum is all transferred to the Earth? The upper section contains a certain amount of momentum. It loses that momentum as its kinetic energy is transferred to the lower structure. This transfer of energy takes place over time and distance travelled and as it occurs it is marked by a reduction in velocity which by definition means that the momentum of the moving mass gets smaller.(only if the forces acting downward are less than those acting upward. If downward forces are greater then the velocity of the falling mass increases and so does the momentum of that falling mass)

ONLY if the lower structure was of the same strength as the bedrock would yandross be able to claim that the momentum was all transferred directly to the bedrock. He is ignoring centuries of structural engineering. The structure has a failure point. If enough force is applied that is greater than the force the structure can resist then the structure begins succumbing to that force, IT MOVES, it bends, it fractures. No office building is a solid structure, they are made of floors held up by their attachments to load bearing columns. If anything buggers up those columns then they will not efficiently transfer that load to the ground. Only load on those columns will be transfered to the ground.

In the case of the towers first of all something did bugger up the columns at the impact/fire floors. The ability to resist the dead load was reduced throughout the time the buildings were on fire , at the fire floors. As a result the columns started to bend uder the load as they did so the load was taken up by other columns, other columns continued to weaken as the fire moved through the building. Some columns, having already foreshortened under heat and load would then cool BUT they would no longer be straight and if not straight they could not possibly regain their ability to carry more load. Eventually a point was reached when there was no more reserve capacity in the columns and any additional load tranfers resulted in rapid failure of the columns(they bent and/or fractured).

The upper portion of the building then fell through the first floor height BECAUSE the columns no longer lined up where they had bent and/or fractured.

The impact forces and the gravity forces due to the mass of the falling upper section then could only be transferred to the columns as it was imparted upon the floor space and transfered via the truss system to the columns. The truss seats were never designed to be able to carry the force of the entire building above them let alone that plus the impact forces. Thus the vast bulk of downward forces were not on the columns and thus very little of that downward force was taken by the columns.

As this happened the floors were ripped away, the columns of the lower section lost lateral support and at the same time were being buffeted by the falling debris and they also buckled, bent and/or fractured.

The acelleration of the collapse was about 10-15% less than gravity meaning that the resistive force offered by the lower structure was 10-15% of the total force of the falling debris The lower section only offered the resistance it did because the force was not being taken on by the strength members, the columns, of the structure. Those columns in turn relied upon the trusses of the floors for lateral support. The columns of the intact building held the mass of the entire building BUT once they lose lateral support they could not remain standing (look up Euler and critical load), would not have been able to even stand on their own let alone while being buffeted by large dense moving debris.

As columns bent during collapse they would be transfering some of that energy as heavy lateral vibration , at the speed of sound, down their length. This may well have been large enough to snap some truss connections well ahead of the collapse zone itself and certainly would result in the sound reaching the ground by two paths, that through the columns and that through the air. In this way you have witnesses saying they heard booms ahead of the collapse coming from the basement. The sound coming via the columns would be travelling much faster than that through the air. It also explains why things were falling from the ceilings of the ground floor while the towers collapsed. It was also happening on other floors but no one there lived to tell of it and only a couple on the ground floor did.


Better Sylvester?:D
 
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And there we have his fundamental flaw.
It is NOT a very simple force equation and he is too stupid to realize that.

I hate to be a stickler for detail, but this IS a simple force equation. The building's mass remains the same for the entire collapse (plane mass not withstanding), and the acceleration due to gravity remains the same.

The "force" on the building remains the same from when it it was standing to when the whole friggin thing was lying on the ground in little tiny pieces F=ma!
That being said, It is a simple kinetic energy equation and therefore:

It is NOT a very simple force equation and he is too stupid to realize that.

He does not know the difference between energy and force.
And beachnut: I proposed the question of his feet exploding if he got hit in the head because he claimed that the upper masses kinetic energy would be transmitted down to the ground and the base would have been deformed before the upper floors. How he gets that is beyond me.
And finally, I must confess that I was the one who spawned this god awful demon, his first video was a response to a comment I made on a video over at YouTube. I tried to teach the kid a little bit of physics and he went insane. May god have mercy on my soul.
 
Well, at least we know who to blame. My dog forgives you. :)

I think you touched on a fundamental problem with CTers - not knowing differences between force, energy and momentum. Or gravity. Or logic. Or...never mind.
 
I hate to be a stickler for detail, but this IS a simple force equation. The building's mass remains the same for the entire collapse (plane mass not withstanding), and the acceleration due to gravity remains the same.

The force on the building remains the same...Uhm didn't a big chunk of the mass get expelled...? I think mostly concrete dust. I think 40% of the building was concrete according to Greening, (even more mass was expelled according to Ross, but still no where near to the 80-90% he is looking for). I don´t want to be a stickler, but...well if we´re on the subject... :p No matter, I know what you are trying to say :) And agree...
 
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I hate to be a stickler for detail, but this IS a simple force equation. The building's mass remains the same for the entire collapse (plane mass not withstanding), and the acceleration due to gravity remains the same.

The "force" on the building remains the same from when it it was standing to when the whole friggin thing was lying on the ground in little tiny pieces F=ma!
That being said, It is a simple kinetic energy equation and therefore:

It is NOT a very simple force equation and he is too stupid to realize that.

He does not know the difference between energy and force.
And beachnut: I proposed the question of his feet exploding if he got hit in the head because he claimed that the upper masses kinetic energy would be transmitted down to the ground and the base would have been deformed before the upper floors. How he gets that is beyond me.
And finally, I must confess that I was the one who spawned this god awful demon, his first video was a response to a comment I made on a video over at YouTube. I tried to teach the kid a little bit of physics and he went insane. May god have mercy on my soul.
My feet are exploding.

But boy wonder continues teaching physics to the masses.
Yandros42 (15 hours ago)
You mean like:
s = ut + 1/2at^2
v^2 = u^2 + 2as
v = u + at

Sure I know them. Look you can even use the first one there to prove that the collapse encountered no resistance:

We know from seismic data that one of the towers fell in 8.4 seconds. We know the towers were 410 meters high. We know that the planes came in at about 350 meters up.

350 = 0 + 1/2 * a * 8.4^2
350 / (8.4^2 * 0.5) = a
a = 9.92063492 m/s/s (I.e. gravity plus or minus the margin of error.)
How can he use seismic data to show how fast the WTC fell? What energy level would be on the seismic data from the impact zone for the first second of WTC movement? You have to know the capabilities, threshold, and resolution of the seismic data before you can say what it means for a building falling. Did the seismic data have the final core falling after 25 seconds? That is the part of the core that the cutter charges must of failed on. And not sure how those guys lived through all the cutter charges in the core where they were rescued from.

If Yandros42 was not a censorNAZI, I could ask him.

Good job setting off boy wonder, when he figures out the brick continues to accelerate when it hits an egg he will have to pack up his videos and hide. I am saving them to show to his class if he becomes a teacher. Yandros will be able to teach his students to be skeptics of teachers using himself as the example.

Please poke him again, I love his videos. We need a debunk the debunkers final chapter. I love physix movies.
 
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The force on the building remains the same...Uhm didn't a big chunk of the mass get expelled...? I think mostly concrete dust. I think 40% of the building was concrete according to Greening, (even more mass was expelled according to Ross, but still no where near to the 80-90% he is looking for). I don´t want to be a stickler, but...well if we´re on the subject... :p No matter, I know what you are trying to say :) And agree...

ah sylvester, my good friend, why are you giving him more ammo? :) no the expelled mass was still part of the original building. in fact the force acting on the building to this day is still the same! less any mass that may have escaped the the earth's gravitational field, has been used in a chemical process or beta decayed. :) but i know YOU know what i am trying to say. did you get that job?
 
ah sylvester, my good friend, why are you giving him more ammo? :) no the expelled mass was still part of the original building. in fact the force acting on the building to this day is still the same! less any mass that may have escaped the the earth's gravitational field, has been used in a chemical process or beta decayed. :) but i know YOU know what i am trying to say. did you get that job?

Relax :D I'm not providing him with ammo... I'm actually defending your case. The reports that some of the mass did not exert a permanent force on the lower part of the building during a collapse are not going to change the outcome even in a worst case scenario, they only complicate the calculations of a collapse... It's marginal, insignificant, but truthers cling to it so be prepared.
 
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I hate to be a stickler for detail, but this IS a simple force equation. The building's mass remains the same for the entire collapse (plane mass not withstanding), and the acceleration due to gravity remains the same.



That's the downward force due to gravity. I agree it remains pretty much constant. The problem is, for him to assert that net force is zero, he has to be assuming the lower section exerts an upward force on the upper part that exactly matches the force of gravity on the upper part. That was true when the building was whole, but after the collpase began it was no longer true, as the collapsing structure simply could not transfer an equal load to the ground.

Once you're into the collapse, modeling the interactions of all the parts, and trying to sum to a simple Ftotal that you can apply to the entire mass of the building is a fools game. And that's essentially what he's trying to do - he's modeling a huge, complex, interdependent structure as essentially perfectly rigid point masses, and then acting like that is the last word on the physics involved.
 
That's the downward force due to gravity. I agree it remains pretty much constant. The problem is, for him to assert that net force is zero, he has to be assuming the lower section exerts an upward force on the upper part that exactly matches the force of gravity on the upper part. That was true when the building was whole, but after the collpase began it was no longer true, as the collapsing structure simply could not transfer an equal load to the ground.

Once you're into the collapse, modeling the interactions of all the parts, and trying to sum to a simple Ftotal that you can apply to the entire mass of the building is a fools game. And that's essentially what he's trying to do - he's modeling a huge, complex, interdependent structure as essentially perfectly rigid point masses, and then acting like that is the last word on the physics involved.

Dynamics: Sum(F(t))=m*a
Statics: a=0.0
Dynamic: moving; changing.
Static: unchanging, not moving.

Amazing how that works out. Too bad those testosterone-saturated brains (or some psyche-changing drug) can't tell the difference between moving and non-moving. It really isn't that difficult if you have any attachment to reality...

and don't nobody get pedantic on me here. for all practical purposes, and for ease of solution, the equation takes into account "g", as in Sum(F(t))=m*g+K*x+B*v+Fext(t)
 
That's the downward force due to gravity. I agree it remains pretty much constant. The problem is, for him to assert that net force is zero, he has to be assuming the lower section exerts an upward force on the upper part that exactly matches the force of gravity on the upper part. That was true when the building was whole, but after the collpase began it was no longer true, as the collapsing structure simply could not transfer an equal load to the ground.

Once you're into the collapse, modeling the interactions of all the parts, and trying to sum to a simple Ftotal that you can apply to the entire mass of the building is a fools game. And that's essentially what he's trying to do - he's modeling a huge, complex, interdependent structure as essentially perfectly rigid point masses, and then acting like that is the last word on the physics involved.

Yah, Horatius i just spent like 20 minutes since i saw your post figuring out exactly what you're saying, and YES!. There's an infinite amount of forces acting acting over infinitely small time intervals at an infinite amount of places. All of which need to equal zero! By his method, the building should have collapsed immediately. As soon as the exterior columns we're severed there was an additional force on the core right? Lets say the force went from 100N to 120N! NET FORCE DOES NOT EQUAL ZERO! NET FORCE ON THE CORE IS 20N! THE CORE ACCELERATES! hehe
 

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