Bigfoot risks extinction, says Canadian MP

Quinn said:
So let me see if I've got this straight: are you actually suggesting that if enough people believe that something exists -- no matter how demonstrably ill-founded those beliefs are, and no matter how ignorant and superstitious the people are, and no matter how conclusively we can trace the origins of those beliefs back to a time when the entire human population was largely ignorant and superstitious and demonstrably wrong in most of their beliefs -- then despite all that, we should still not only hold open the possibility that said thing might be real, but even go so far as to make actual decisions that will tangibly effect how people and institutions go about their business, based on that possibility? Furthermore, are you seriously making this suggestion on a skeptic forum, with a straight face and no discernible hint of irony?

If the answer is yes, then what is the qualification for a belief to merit this consideration? On a planet of six billion people, how many do I have to convince (without any actual evidence, of course) that my pet talking pencil eraser is real, before it becomes "a part of folklore and mass consciousness," and therefore worthy of being treated as "having real potential existence"?
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Actually forget I said it. To explain what I mean would be impossible. I couldn't put it into language that we could both understand.
 
Stop contradicting yourself, the language everyone understands is English. You should learn to become a better writer instead of whining that you can't get others to understand your point of view.
 
Quinn said:
If the answer is yes, then what is the qualification for a belief to merit this consideration? On a planet of six billion people, how many do I have to convince (without any actual evidence, of course) that my pet talking pencil eraser is real, before it becomes "a part of folklore and mass consciousness," and therefore worthy of being treated as "having real potential existence"?
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Well, I'm convinced. Can I have an egg next time it breeds?
 
Quinn said:
If the answer is yes, then what is the qualification for a belief to merit this consideration? On a planet of six billion people, how many do I have to convince (without any actual evidence, of course) that my pet talking pencil eraser is real, before it becomes "a part of folklore and mass consciousness," and therefore worthy of being treated as "having real potential existence"?
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No, your pet talking pencil eraser should only be taken seriuously if it is "mass exsisitng well distributed since long".
 
Big deal! They only have 500 signatures on thier petition. You can get 500 signatures for anything. I'm willing to bet that 300 of them did it for a joke too.
Besides, I'm more worried about the dwindeling Jackalope population.
 
Solus said:
Stop contradicting yourself, the language everyone understands is English. You should learn to become a better writer instead of whining that you can't get others to understand your point of view.
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OK. If I become a good enough writer to express myself in a way you'll understand, I'll be in touch.
 
suncrafter said:
Big deal! They only have 500 signatures on thier petition. You can get 500 signatures for anything. I'm willing to bet that 300 of them did it for a joke too.
Besides, I'm more worried about the dwindeling Jackalope population.
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The petition itself is no big deal. The House of Commons will never take it seriously. The "big deal" is that a member of the government accepted the petition as legitimate and had it tabled in the House. It's one more example of woo entering the halls of officialdom. I see the thin edge of a wedge. I can see the distinct possibility that one day, governments will take a Bigfoot petition seriously, or ID, or mind readers, or whatever else. We already have an American president who is supposedly a born again Christian and who encourages fundamental religion. That's a big deal to me.
 
Tumblehome said:
I can see the distinct possibility that one day, governments will take a Bigfoot petition seriously, or ID, or mind readers, or whatever else.
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Or remote reiki, homeopathy, dowsing, astrology, .....
 
Tumblehome said:
The petition itself is no big deal. The House of Commons will never take it seriously. The "big deal" is that a member of the government accepted the petition as legitimate and had it tabled in the House. It's one more example of woo entering the halls of officialdom. I see the thin edge of a wedge. I can see the distinct possibility that one day, governments will take a Bigfoot petition seriously, or ID, or mind readers, or whatever else. We already have an American president who is supposedly a born again Christian and who encourages fundamental religion. That's a big deal to me.
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I wouldn't get too carried away over this; it's not the harbinger of a new dark age. It's an amusing incident rather than a trend in Canadian society. All sorts of nonsense gets bandied about in the HOC; that's what it's for. I'd be worried if the Canadian Wildlife Service or some other part of the bureaucracy was spearheading it. The professionals in the line departments and agencies are important institutional checks and balances on the nuttier aspects of parliamentary democracy. As long as bureaucratic inertia holds and our mandarins remain unelected, all will be well.
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
I wouldn't get too carried away over this; it's not the harbinger of a new dark age. It's an amusing incident rather than a trend in Canadian society. All sorts of nonsense gets bandied about in the HOC; that's what it's for. I'd be worried if the Canadian Wildlife Service or some other part of the bureaucracy was spearheading it. The professionals in the line departments and agencies are important institutional checks and balances on the nuttier aspects of parliamentary democracy. As long as bureaucratic inertia holds and our mandarins remain unelected, all will be well.
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The Bigfoot petition in itself is insignificant, but just giving it official acknowledgement gives Bigfoot an air of legitimacy that opens the door to more irrational thinking where it doesn't belong. Electing a born again Christian for president in the U.S. led to creationists trying to take over school boards and getting creationism into science classes. Two years ago, my friends just laughed at What The Bleep Do We Know and wondered why I was upset that a cult recruitment film could play in respectable mainstream theatres; a year later, my son's physics teacher showed it to his students to "give them another perspective on science".

The media are giving woo respectability, and not just gossip shows like Oprah and Montel, but supposedly serious journalism is pandering to it. Did you ever think you'd see 20/20 devote a two-hour special edition to woo? The producers know there's significant number of people who want to see this stuff, and by publicising it, they're helping to promote it, too.

Maybe it's just a passing fad that will die a slow death. But maybe not. I don't think anyone can say yet which way it will go, but for now, I think it's something to be concerned about.
 
If you are American...I understand your point - you probably feel under siege from official woo. But it doesn't really apply in Canada.

Tumblehome said:
The Bigfoot petition in itself is insignificant, but just giving it official acknowledgement gives Bigfoot an air of legitimacy that opens the door to more irrational thinking where it doesn't belong.
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You may not be aware of the dynamic of a House of Commons. (If you are a Canuck or from another commonwealth country, my apologies). Irrational thinking is par for the course. This is where citizens' representatives get together to shout at each other across the floor. The government defends its policies, the oppostition attacks those policies. No-one would mistake what goes on for debate of any substance. It is pure political theatre.

What I'm trying to say is...the fact that the Bigfoot petition was presented to the HOC is insignificant. It does not give it official legitimacy. This is the same HOC that recently spent several days yelling at each other because a member of the govt called his ex-girlfriend (who is a member of the opposition) a dog.

It's also not a slippery slope or a trend. It's just business as usual at the circus. I would only be worried if a line department or a cabinet minister was taking this seriously.
 
I'm Canadian (no apology necessary), so I'm aware of the puffery and posturing that passes for debate in the House. As painful as it is sometimes watching our elected reps behaving like whiney brats, it still isn't as embarrassing as having one of them table the Bigfoot petition.

When I say "official recognition", I don't mean that the House will adopt it, just that a Member of Parliament actually treated it as legitimate. Even if he thinks it's whacked-out crazy himself, he still accepted it and tabled it in the House of Commons. To some of the general public (not the House and gov't bureaucrats), that could be interpreted as an official stamp of approval. I'm sure the self-promoting author of the petition will be pushing that angle (and will, at the same time, blame the government for not acting on it :rolleyes:). I used the American examples to show how getting a foot in the door has led to wider acceptance of irrational thinking.

I'd like to see the government response to this petition. It's due within 45 days, which has just passed, but I don't know where I'd find it. I wonder if the MP's office would send me a copy... :)
 
Tumblehome said:
When I say "official recognition", I don't mean that the House will adopt it, just that a Member of Parliament actually treated it as legitimate. Even if he thinks it's whacked-out crazy himself, he still accepted it and tabled it in the House of Commons. To some of the general public (not the House and gov't bureaucrats), that could be interpreted as an official stamp of approval. I'm sure the self-promoting author of the petition will be pushing that angle (and will, at the same time, blame the government for not acting on it :rolleyes:). I used the American examples to show how getting a foot in the door has led to wider acceptance of irrational thinking.
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Good point

I'd like to see the government response to this petition. It's due within 45 days, which has just passed, but I don't know where I'd find it. I wonder if the MP's office would send me a copy... :)
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That would indeed be interesting. If you find out, be sure to let us know.
 
Tumblehome said:
The petition itself is no big deal. The House of Commons will never take it seriously. The "big deal" is that a member of the government accepted the petition as legitimate and had it tabled in the House. It's one more example of woo entering the halls of officialdom. I see the thin edge of a wedge. I can see the distinct possibility that one day, governments will take a Bigfoot petition seriously, or ID, or mind readers, or whatever else. We already have an American president who is supposedly a born again Christian and who encourages fundamental religion. That's a big deal to me.
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But what about the poor Jackalopes?!?!?
 
I think the Jackalopes are protected by default if it passes. I understand they have similar dietary requirements!
 
suncrafter said:
But what about the poor Jackalopes?!?!?
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I suggest gathering a petition and submitting it to your MP or Congressman. Luckily for the jackalopes, and unicorns, and leprechauns, and flying pigs, etc, a precedent has been set. :mad:
 
Porterboy said:
Scotland has taken similar measures to protect Nessie. In my own opinion, Nessie is far more likely to be proven real than most other cryptids, including Bigfoot. I wrote about that on this forum a few months ago.
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Hi, new to the forums :)

Do you know that nessie is being threatened by global warming, something
the evil empire of america is responsible for ? Lucky enough nessie has kept up with technology and is now using a submarine for protection

Shame I cant post a url but do a google search for : highland news nessie

Regarding bigfoot, I do beleive we wil meet him when uri figures out
how to bend time instead of spoons :)
 
I just received the Government Response to the Bigfoot petition from MP Mike Lake's office, dated May 10, 2007.


Environment Canada:

In representing their constituents, Members of Parliament present petitions on all sorts of matters to the House of Commons. House of Commons Procedure and Practice, at page 934, states "many Members consider it a duty to present to the House petitions brought forward by citizens".

In addition, the Government recognizes that petitions presented by Members do not indicate support for the content of a petition. As House of Commons Procedure and Practice states at page 935, "any comment on the merits of a petition--even a Member's personal agreement or disagreement with the petitioners...is therefore out of order."

In general, scientists discount the existence of "Bigfoot". It is considered to be as mythical as any plan produced by the previous government to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

As such, the federal government has no plan to protect "Bigfoot". Nor does it have any other plans to protect such mythical creatures as unicorns, sea creatures like mermaids or the Loch Ness Monster or dragons.

As for protection of species, the federal government is responsible for the protection of species that have been listed under the Species at Risk Act. We follow a process whereby the Minister of the Environment makes a recommendation to the Governor-in-Council. One factor that must be considered by the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada (COSEWIC), an independent scientific body. COSEWIC has not assessed "Bigfoot". Such a body deals with scientific evidence, not fantasy.
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I'm relieved they reached that conclusion, and I can't argue with their reasoning, but there are a couple of things that bother me about the response. It seems to answer, almost directly, the two emails I know of that were sent to the MP's office (mine and osmosis's). Almost as if the response was tailored to fit the complaints, although I don't know why Environment Canada would, or should, know about them. (The first two paragraphs have nothing to do with the petition itself, but look suspiciously like justification for Mike Lake accepting it. I doubt that every response to a petition starts with that.)

And I was really surprised to see a cheap slam against the Liberals in the third paragraph. Why the hell is Environment Canada playing politics in a simple response to a non-political petition? :confused:
 
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