Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[skeptifem]

impressive, you went and researched for quite awhile and found support for everything you asserted *snicker*

 

[Darat]

Quote from Doc:
Just think of all the important historical information learned in this forum.





So you all ready knew about

1. the content of Washington's first inaugural address.

2. the content of Lincoln's second inaugural address.

3. the content of Coolidge's inaugural address. (especially the last paragraph)

4. The fact that Jefferson claimed to be a Christian.

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

6. The fact that Leo Pfeffer (who resigned from an ACLU committee in 1961) and Justice Hugo Black (who had been in the KKK and marched in their parades) played such an important role in the creation of the "separation of church and state" "legal concept" in the 1947 Everson case.

7. The fact that the supposedly non religious Ben Franklin touted the important benefit of religion.

8. The fact that former Supreme Court Chief Justice, William Rehnquist said that the legal concept of separation of church and state was based on "bad history" and "should frankly and explicitly be abandoned".



Drkitten you must be a smart guy to have already known the above. Unless maybe, you didn't know it, and just think its not important information for Americans to know.

I for one have certainly learnt a lot about the above that I did not know before the thread started - however DOC not one thing I have learned came from you, what I learned came from the well referenced, well sourced and well reasoned posts of your "opponents" in this thread. I've learnt nothing from you since I already knew how fanatics will twist the truth and lie to support their fanaticism.

 

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by DOC

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.





Where have you been, I've already given the website (which includes sources) for this fact.



"Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President 5 and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson’s friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. 6 Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the “wall of separation between church and state” metaphor.

MANASSEH CUTLER
U. S. Rep. Manasseh Cutler, who also attended church at the Capitol, recorded in his own diary that “He [Jefferson] and his family have constantly attended public worship in the Hall.” 7 Mary Bayard Smith, another attendee at the Capitol services, confirmed: “Mr. Jefferson, during his whole administration, was a most regular attendant.” 8 She noted that Jefferson even had a designated seat at the Capitol church: “The seat he chose the first Sabbath, and the adjoining one (which his private secretary occupied), were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him and his secretary.” 9 Jefferson was so committed to those services that he would not even allow inclement weather to dissuade him; as Rep. Cutler noted: “It was very rainy, but his [Jefferson’s] ardent zeal brought him through the rain and on horseback to the Hall.” 10 Other diary entries confirm Jefferson’s attendance in spite of bad weather. 11

SOURCES:


[5] Bishop Claggett’s (Episcopal Bishop of Maryland) letter of February 18, 1801, reveals that, as vice- President, Jefferson went to church services in the House. Available in the Maryland Diocesan Archives.

[6] William Parker Cutler and Julia Perkins Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence of Rev. Manasseh Cutler (Cincinnati: Colin Robert Clarke & Co., 1888), Vol. II, p. 66, 119, letter to Joseph Torrey, January 4, 1802. Cutler meant that Jefferson attended church on January 3, 1802, for the first time as President. Bishop Claggett’s letter of February 18, 1801, already revealed that as Vice-President, Jefferson went to church services in the House.

[7] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 12, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 113).

[8] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[9] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[10] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 26, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 114).

[11] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 114, December 26, 1802.


From the article "Church in the U.S. Capitol" by David Barton

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=123#_ednref5

A list of secondary sources given to you by Barton? That's your evidence?

Tell you what, you find me where Jefferson, in all of his prolific writing, ever mentions he went to services in the rotunda and prayed as a christian.

Why do you ignore the evidence Jefferson was rather against Christianity as an organized religion, or the evidence we can show with the Jefferson Bible that shows he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus?

Here's an interesting one: I've been to services too. Usually out of respect for a friend or relative either having an event, or a funeral. Does that mean I am also a christian?

DOC, read Darat's post, and think real hard about the totality of your loss in this thread.

Well you did accomplish one thing. We all know exactly how intellectually dishonest you, Kennedy and Barton are.

 

[Hawk one]

All that time spent researching and you haven't managed to find the answer to the simple questions asked of you?

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1. In what case were these words uttered?
2. In what year were these words uttered?
3. In what year was the ACLJ founded?

Remember, answering these questions isn't about testing you as such, it's about teaching you something.

It's about teaching you to research your claims before throwing them out.

It's about teaching you to learn about source criticism. After all, you must have "learned" somewhere that the quote in question was (falsely) attributed to the ACLJ president. Where did you "learn" about this? From Kennedy's webpage? Barton's? And wherever you found it, why would this source "teach" you this outright lie?

It's about teaching you a little something regarding humility, something you haven't shown much of so far. I think I'll put in another quote from Slingblade to illustrate this:

I mean, you literally added insult to your injury in the way you phrased the offending post: "You probably don't realise this..." That's attacking my intelligence. That's arrogant. It's insulting.

What makes it worse is that there is no way I could ever have realized it, because it was factually incorrect! It isn't so! And I knew it the moment you posted it. I studied this very case in college, just last fall! I had to write a legal brief summarizing it. I had to research it, analyze it, and present it. I knew you were wrong.

And yet you insult me with "You probably don't realize this..." and then tell me a bunch of crap!

Now, if that were done to you, would you just meekly let those falsehoods stand? If I had done that to you, would you just let me get away with it?

A person of any humility and integrity would damn well have apologised after realising how arrogant and patronising he'd just been, which he should have realised after reading that the first time.

And of course, it's about teaching you a lesson in honesty. A lesson that is well overdue.

So, once again, here are three questions for you. If you can stand up and muster some intellectual honesty, they should be incredibly easy to answer:

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1. In what case were these words uttered?
2. In what year were these words uttered?
3. In what year was the ACLJ founded?

 

[DOC]

A list of secondary sources given to you by Barton? That's your evidence?

Tell you what, you find me where Jefferson, in all of his prolific writing, ever mentions he went to services in the rotunda and prayed as a christian.

Why do you ignore the evidence Jefferson was rather against Christianity as an organized religion, or the evidence we can show with the Jefferson Bible that shows he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus?

Here's an interesting one: I've been to services too. Usually out of respect for a friend or relative either having an event, or a funeral. Does that mean I am also a christian?

DOC, read Darat's post, and think real hard about the totality of your loss in this thread.

Well you did accomplish one thing. We all know exactly how intellectually dishonest you, Kennedy and Barton are.

Jefferson didn't wear his religion on his sleeve but we've already shown that Jefferson claimed in a letter to fellow Declaration of Independence signer Dr. Benjamin Rush that he was a Christian. So Jefferson in his own mind considered himself a Christian and that comes strait from his own pen. When you add that fact to the fact that I've also shown that Congress approved of church services in the congressional building and the fact that we have an eyewitness account from M. Cutler (a member of Congress) together with 2 other sources the propensity of the evidence definitely leads to the fact that Jefferson was a Church going, Rotunda going president. If you want to ignore all these facts, that's your right.

 

[Ducky]

Jefferson didn't wear his religion on his sleeve but we've already shown that Jefferson claimed in a letter to fellow Declaration of Independence signer Dr. Benjamin Rush that he was a Christian. So Jefferson in his own mind considered himself a Christian and that comes strait from his own pen. When you add that fact to the fact that I've also shown that Congress approved of church services in the congressional building and the fact that we have an eyewitness account from a member of Congress together with 2 other sources the propensity of the evidence definitely leads to the fact that Jefferson was a Church going, Rotunda going president. If you want to ignore all these facts, that's your right.

DOC, he very much did wear his religion on his sleeve, and he is the single most prolific writer of the founding fathers. Go back to post #2 of this thread. Jefferson states he does not like Christianity as an organized religion, he does not like clergy, and his editing of the bible to create the Jefferson Bible is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. All you have done is simply repeat your same old falsehoods.

Since Jefferson was such a prolific writer, why is it that I cannot find one reference in his writings to going to services to pray to Jesus? Why is it out of the literal mountain of writings I cannot find him mention the service in the Rotunda that he attended? Why is that DOC? Why can you not give me anything but a hearsay testimony from interested parties to show he did this?

We have given you every fact of Jefferson's beliefs, and YOU, sir, have ignored them to continue to maintain that Jefferson was a Christian, because he once used Christ's name allegorically to describe that he thought the earthly moral teachings were sound reading. Yet despite his use of that term, which seems to be very understandable to not only 99.9% of this forum, but to just about every respectable historian who has studied this subject, you seem convinced that he went to pray to Jesus in the rotunda daily based on a publicly edited wiki, and what could very well be urban legend, but we don't know because all you have is SECONDARY HEARSAY SOURCES from Barton, who we have REPEATEDLY shown to be a liar.

You, DOC, are full of ****.



PS: You did not answer my question:

Here's an interesting one: I've been to services too. Usually out of respect for a friend or relative either having an event, or a funeral. Does that mean I am also a christian?

 

[DOC]

So, once again, here are three questions for you. If you can stand up and muster some intellectual honesty, they should be incredibly easy to answer:

Bring the info in. Why should I spend the time to look it up if you all already have the info. That simply doesn't make any sense to me. Bring it in, educate us. Once again this just proves my point -- your more interested in (the messenger) -- than in sharing the information (the message). I hate to inform all of you this, but this forum is not about DOC, its about our country.

 

[wahrheit]

*snip* ... leads to the fact that Jefferson was a Church going, Rotunda going president.

That's your big point, your concluding statement? In a thread entitled "Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity."

LOL. That's like opening a thread "GEORGE W IS A WAR CRIMINAL !!!111!" and then, after dozens of pages, writing something like "Well, I did present hearsay evidence that George W. Bush was caught jay walking in his youth."

 

[kmortis]

DOC, he very much did wear his religion on his sleeve, and he is the single most prolific writer of the founding fathers. Go back to post #2 of this thread. Jefferson states he does not like Christianity as an organized religion, he does not like clergy, and his editing of the bible to create the Jefferson Bible is IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. All you have done is simply repeat your same old falsehoods.

Since Jefferson was such a prolific writer, why is it that I cannot find one reference in his writings to going to services to pray to Jesus? Why is it out of the literal mountain of writings I cannot find him mention the service in the Rotunda that he attended? Why is that DOC? Why can you not give me anything but a hearsay testimony from interested parties to show he did this?

We have given you every fact of Jefferson's beliefs, and YOU, sir, have ignored them to continue to maintain that Jefferson was a Christian, because he once used Christ's name allegorically to describe that he thought the earthly moral teachings were sound reading. Yet despite his use of that term, which seems to be very understandable to not only 99.9% of this forum, but to just about every respectable historian who has studied this subject, you seem convinced that he went to pray to Jesus in the rotunda daily based on a publicly edited wiki, and what could very well be urban legend, but we don't know because all you have is SECONDARY HEARSAY SOURCES from Barton, who we have REPEATEDLY shown to be a liar.

You, DOC, are full of ****.



PS: You did not answer my question:

[nitpick]I think that Johnny Adams is the single most prolific Founding Father, if you include all the letters that he and Abigail saved. Most of the other FFs' letters weren't saved, so we don't know what was said.[/nitpick]

That being said, TJ wrote WAY more than most the others. Kept detailed diaries, logs, journals and other administrivial writings. I have a copy of Jefferson's Bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth), and he did chop out all references to the supernatural, focusing on the moral teachings of Jesus.

Bear in mind, DOC, that in that day, Deists didn't call themselves Deists. They called themselves Christians. Many of the FFs were Deists and Unitarians. They still call themselves Christian, just not in the same way that we understand it today.

As for him going to a service. I don't find that out of character for him. From all reports about TJ, he was a personable gentleman who would probably go for the exchange of ideas. Johnny Adams wrote quite a bit about how he always tried to make it to a service where ever he was, because he like the interaction with many different types of people. Adams also wrote about how despicable he found most of the organized religions. This wasn't an uncommon practice. I'd be surprised to find that even Thomas Paine (probably the most vocal opponent to organized Christianity) didn't go to a church service regularly.

 

[Hawk one]

Bring the info in. Why should I spend the time to look it up if you all already have the info. That simply doesn't make any sense to me. Bring it in, educate us. Once again this just proves my point -- your more interested in (the messenger) -- than in sharing the information (the message). I hate to inform all of you this, but this forum is not about DOC, its about our country.

How about you quote the rest of my message, in particular this part:

It's about teaching you how to research your claims before throwing them out.

It's about teaching you to learn about source criticism. After all, you must have "learned" somewhere that the quote in question was (falsely) attributed to the ACLJ president. Where did you "learn" about this? From Kennedy's webpage? Barton's? And wherever you found it, ask yorself: Why would this source "teach" you this outright lie?

It's about teaching you a little something regarding humility, something you haven't shown much of so far.

See, if you're ever going to be able to debate facts properly instead of repeating your lies (and please, don't insult yourself by denying it), you simply have no choice but to learn doing proper research work. Those three questions represent the first step on learning just that.

After all, who wouldn't want the moral direction of USA to be dictated by a bunch of fundamentalist liars who keep on repeating the same old falsehoods and absolutely refuse to do any actual research before showing up with their opinions? I know I'd hate for that to happen.

So, if you really care about your country, the first thing you can do is starting a road of honesty. And the best way to start this is to answer these three questions.

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1. In what case were these words uttered?
2. In what year were these words uttered?
3. In what year was the ACLJ founded?

USA wants honesty. Why are you afraid to provide that?

 

[DOC]

"Washington wrote 50 letters saying so."

Well this week on the front cover of Newsweek there is a story called "God and War". One of the articles is called "The Calm in the Chaos" by Lisa Miller. She writes in an article about military chaplains:

"George Washington thought chaplains belonged in the military and he wrote 50 letters saying so; in 1775, Congress approved funding."


I wonder how Leo Pfeffer would of held up at Valley Forge.

 

[Ducky]

...and DOC dodges to the left.

 

[DOC]

...and DOC dodges to the left.

Another empty "attack the messenger post". Give us some meat like post 791.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Fowlsound was just pointing out that your post is utterly irrelevant to the subject.

 

[Ducky]

Another empty "attack the messenger post". Give us some meat like post 791.

You mean the post that contains an adhom and appeal to authority?

How about you answer the questions put to you?

 

[Cleon]

Another empty "attack the messenger post". Give us some meat like post 791.

Oh, quit hiding behind your ego.

 

[wahrheit]

Well this week on the front cover of Newsweek there is a story called "God and War". One of the articles is called "The Calm in the Chaos" by Lisa Miller. She writes in an article about military chaplains:

"George Washington thought chaplains belonged in the military and he wrote 50 letters saying so; in 1775, Congress approved funding."

I wonder how Leo Pfeffer would of held up at Valley Forge.

Another empty "attack the messenger post". Give us some meat like post 791.

 

[drkitten]

Give us some meat like post 791.

What meat?

I don't think that anyone on this thread didn't know when the US chaplain's corps was founded.

Except you. And your sources.

 

[slingblade]

Bring the info in. Why should I spend the time to look it up if you all already have the info. That simply doesn't make any sense to me. Bring it in, educate us. Once again this just proves my point -- your more interested in (the messenger) -- than in sharing the information (the message). I hate to inform all of you this, but this forum is not about DOC, its about our country.

It's not my job to educate you--it is your job to educate yourself.

 

[DOC]

It's not my job to educate you--it is your job to educate yourself.

Your right, but don't you think other people beside me will benefit from any important info you might have. So bring in the info for their sakes and not mine. Don't make them miss out because of your focus on not educating me.