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Biology question

joesixpack

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When and how did skeletons evolve? Not exoskeletons, but the endo kind, like I have.

And a related question, are all animals with endoskeletons vertibrates?

Do all vertibrates have endoskeletons?

Thanks.
 
I think I woould have gotten the answers to my question sooner if the thread title was "Endoskeletons, Total Proof of Gods Love and ID"
 
When and how did skeletons evolve? Not exoskeletons, but the endo kind, like I have.

And a related question, are all animals with endoskeletons vertibrates?

Do all vertibrates have endoskeletons?

Thanks.

According to wikipedia: EndoskeletonWP

The four taxa which have endoskeletons are the Chordata, Echinodermata, Porifera and Coleoidea.

I suspected these groups have evolved endoskeletons independently, at different times for different reasons.

So not all animals with endoskeletons are vertebrates.

All vertebrates have endoskeletons at some stage in their development.
 
The full text of a comprehensive review of the evolution of the vertebrate endoskeleton can be found here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1262919

There is no simple answer to your question. The evolution of the vertebrate endoskeleton involves five different stages of "skeleton" so you need to read this essay which should put everything in perspective for you.

From this review:

1. The hydroskeleton
2. The hydrostatic skeleton
3. Sclerotome skeleton
4. Neural skeleton (organisms with notochords)
5. Neuro-Muscular skeleton (the vertebrate skeleton).
 
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I think I woould have gotten the answers to my question sooner if the thread title was "Endoskeletons, Total Proof of Gods Love and ID"

Pretty much. It's the nature of the beast.

Also you live in a different time zone to most of the people on this board. Hey, I'm in the same country as you and I'm in a different time zone!
 
The full text of a comprehensive review of the evolution of the vertebrate endoskeleton can be found here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1262919

There is no simple answer to your question. The evolution of the vertebrate endoskeleton involves five different stages of "skeleton" so you need to read this essay which should put everything in perspective for you.

From this review:

Thanks for the linky. It's a tough slog through that essay, though. Lotsa' big words and all. What I am able to decipher is fascinating reading.
 
Sounds almost like something an ID advocate would say. "Don't ask questions. Don't investigate anything. Just be happy, for you are in God's hands."

No, it's more like, "I have no useful answer, so what can I come up with that will increase my post count by one, and still be provocative enough to not be ignored?"

It worked.
 
I heard a layman's answer to this question on a Discovery Channel show several years ago.

The theory of how the endoskeleton evolved went like this:

Small chordates, such as Pikaia and Amphioxus, were constantly being hunted by large, vicious predators like Animalocaris. "Oh no!" screamed Pikaia, "It's an animalocaris! Run for your AAAAAAGH!" <chomp>

How did Pikaia escape extinction when faced with such a menacing beast? It found an environment where Animalocaris couldn't touch it. Instead of taking his chances in the predator-infested oceans of the Paleozoic Era, Pikaia hid out in the less-salty, more-brackish waters at the mouths of river deltas. The farther into the unsalty water he could swim, the better the chances were that Animalocaris couldn't follow him there.

But with his new found safe haven, Pikaia had a whole new set of problems. For example, the cyptolasm in Pikaia's cells had a salinity very close to that of ocean water. The brackish less-salty waters he now found himself in, though, would make his salty cells swell and burst from osmosis if he couldn't do something about it. The solution? A kidney! A new, specialized organ to take all the extra water that was working its way into Pikaia's bloodstream, and pump it back out into the environment. Pikaia's descendants invented peeing.

But not having enough salt in the water he was breathing wasn't Pikaia's only problem. The deep ocean waters are home to many, many vital minerals besides salt -- magnesium, calcium, copper, you name it. The brackish waters around the mouths of rivers simply didn't have a high enough concentration of these minerals to sustain Pikaia, particularly with all that peeing he was now doing.

What to do? Why, he could store the minerals somewhere in his body when they were plentiful and he was at rest, so that he could use them later. The most obvious place to hang these collections of stored minerals was his notochord, the nerve cord that ran the length of his body and gave his phylum its name. And so, what was once just a long bundle of nerves now began to accumulate a long chain of rocks around it, consisting primarily of calcium since that was the one mineral Pikaia needed the most of.

These notochord-hanging mineral deposits were what eventually became the Backbone as we know it. They were the first bones to evolve. We owe the great structural strength of our arms and legs to a nutrient storage system, chanced upon as a solution to the problems of permanently escaping from predators.
 
I heard a layman's answer to this question on a Discovery Channel show several years ago.

The theory of how the endoskeleton evolved went like this:

snipped

These notochord-hanging mineral deposits were what eventually became the Backbone as we know it. They were the first bones to evolve. We owe the great structural strength of our arms and legs to a nutrient storage system, chanced upon as a solution to the problems of permanently escaping from predators.
A few corrections (donning my pedant's hat).

1. It's Anomalocaris.

2. Marine fish have kidneys. Indeed most marine metazoa have organs for excreting aqueous waste.

3. The notochord isn't a nerve cord, it's an inert stiffening rod.

Overall it's a nice story, but I didn't see the programme you mention so I'm not sure what evidence exists for all this.
 
Here's some info, from <http://academic.emporia.edu/mooredwi/nathist/chap5.htm>

modern radiation (Neoselachii)

* appear in Early Triassic, modern genera by Cretaceous
* probably arose from a Cladoselache-like ancestor
(snip)
* Notochord has been replaced by cartilaginous centra that CALCIFY; neural and haemal arches protect the spinal cord and blood vessels that run next to the notochord.
 
2. Marine fish have kidneys. Indeed most marine metazoa have organs for excreting aqueous waste.
The theory propounded by this Discovery Channel program was that fishes first arose in the brackish waters by the mouths of rivers, and then some of the fish species want back into the ocean -- hence, marine fish have kindeys that are a carry-over from their early days as brackish/freshwater creatures.

The fact that marine invertebrates have kidneys, though, kinda throws a monkey wrench in that hypothesis.
 

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