Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[DOC]

Quote from Doc:
Just think of all the important historical information learned in this forum.

Yes. And none of it by you.

So you all ready knew about

1. the content of Washington's first inaugural address.

2. the content of Lincoln's second inaugural address.

3. the content of Coolidge's inaugural address. (especially the last paragraph)

4. The fact that Jefferson claimed to be a Christian.

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

6. The fact that Leo Pfeffer (who resigned from an ACLU committee in 1961) and Justice Hugo Black (who had been in the KKK and marched in their parades) played such an important role in the creation of the "separation of church and state" "legal concept" in the 1947 Everson case.

7. The fact that the supposedly non religious Ben Franklin touted the important benefit of religion.

8. The fact that former Supreme Court Chief Justice, William Rehnquist said that the legal concept of separation of church and state was based on "bad history" and "should frankly and explicitly be abandoned".



Drkitten you must be a smart guy to have already known the above. Unless maybe, you didn't know it, and just think its not important information for Americans to know.

 

[Ducky]

So you all ready knew about

"already." I'll add that to your list of words you can't keep straight, such as your/you're and they're/their/there.

1. the content of Washington's first inaugural address.p

Irrelevant to Jefferson, the topic of this thread.

2. the content of Lincoln's second inaugural address.

Once again irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

3. the content of Coolidge's inaugural address.

The third completely irrelevant item to the topic of this thread you have posted.

4. The fact that Jefferson claimed to be a Christian.

Fallacy of equiviocation. We have very clearly shown you to be using this in a misleading way as per Jefferson's beliefs. We did this on page 1 of this thread. That you continue to repeat this now shows your intellectual dishonesty and your incredulity.

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

You have never, despite my repeated requests, shown a source for this other than one line in a publicly edited wiki. Therefore it is suspect until you show proper evidence.

6. The fact that Leo Pfeffer (who resigned from an ACLU committee in 1961) and Justice Hugo Black (who had been in the KKK and marched in their parades) played such an important role in the creation of the "separation of church and state" "legal concept".

Yes, the communist and the KKK member. Of course you conveniently left out that your Senator introducing the bill was also a KKK member. DO you have any intellectual honesty at all? Oh, and this is the fourth and fifth completely irrelevant topic to Jefferson and his beliefs, which this thread is about.

7. The fact that the supposedly non religious Ben Franklin touted the important benefit of religion.

Not only was it irrelevant, but you failed to address my response to that in any meaningful way.

8. The fact that former Supreme Court Chief Justice, William Renquist said that the legal concept of separation of church and state was based on "bad history" and "should frankly and explicitly be abandoned".

Once again irrelevant.

Drkitten you must be a smart guy to have already known the above. Unless maybe, you didn't know it, and just think its not important information for Americans to know.

Dr. Kitten is very smart. I'll let the rest be answered by Dr. Kitten, but yes most people here did know of these things. Most people here are rather well educated, as you seem to not be, on the subject of the history of this nation. You'll not admit or acknowledge it, but you have been outclassed in knowledge of the history of the fonding fathers, the ACLU, the courts and just about everything you have posted since post 2 of this thread.

 

[fuelair]

Quote from Doc:
Just think of all the important historical information learned in this forum.





So you all ready knew about

1. the content of Washington's first inaugural address.

2. the content of Lincoln's second inaugural address.

3. the content of Coolidge's inaugural address. (especially the last paragraph)

4. The fact that Jefferson claimed to be a Christian.

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

6. The fact that Leo Pfeffer (who resigned from an ACLU committee in 1961) and Justice Hugo Black (who had been in the KKK and marched in their parades) played such an important role in the creation of the "separation of church and state" "legal concept" in the 1947 Everson case.

7. The fact that the supposedly non religious Ben Franklin touted the important benefit of religion.

8. The fact that former Supreme Court Chief Justice, William Rehnquist said that the legal concept of separation of church and state was based on "bad history" and "should frankly and explicitly be abandoned".



Drkitten you must be a smart guy to have already known the above. Unless maybe, you didn't know it, and just think its not important information for Americans to know.

You do, I hope, realize that your printing it here does not constitute our learning it - for the simplest of reasons: you have demonstrated consistantly that you will misstate, misinterpret, misuse, and misquote (at a minimum) material to support things you want to be true but aren't. That precludes any of us taking the things you present as correct, complete, unedited, etc. and when items are indeed verified as being such, you simply overlook commentary demonstrating that. You are a fraud perpetuating fraud to push at least two ideas that are just flat wrong (Jefferson wild for Jebus and seperation of church and state. You have nothing to teach here but how to commit incompetant intellectual fraud.

 

[fuelair]

Many non religious persons persons have commented on the benefits of religion. "Religion is the opiate of the masses" for example. It is easy for any reasonably intelligent person to see that a religion is a marvelous way to control people - as long as you can convince or force them to follow its' precepts. (This refers to the B. Franklin comment.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Hokulele makes me offerings of brownies. With macadamia nuts. What you got?

Thank you, Tan. I've always had a worshipful spot for you, too. Anyone who digs RAH as you do is worthy of praise in my book.

I can make you a dish of shrimp creole, my specialty.

 

[slingblade]

You're in.

 

[DOC]

I'll be back, doing more research.

 

[Ducky]

I'll be back, doing more research.

Translation:

I called my pastor but he didn't answer the phone so I am going to listen to more tapes of Kennedy and read some more Barton and decide it is all factually correct without any thought to check sources.


PS, here is what the email notification said was DOC's post (#767):

Who had or has more control over the people. The churches of America or Vladamir Lenin (who was the one who said "Religion is the opium of the masses"). The more power and influence the church had, the less Lenin and the Communist party had. But Vladamir's statue and Communism (in Russia) basically ended up like the Roman Empire. (on the ash heap of history)

If DOC wants to do a body count comparison between Lenin and christianity over both of their respective existences, I suspect he won't be happy with the results.

 

[Mojo]

Do you think his research will include finding out who said "religion is the opium of the masses"?

ETA: Here's a little hint. It was translated from the phrase "die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes".

 

[Cleon]

Lenin? Ye flipping gods.

At this point, I wouldn't trust DOC to accurately describe the color of the sky.

What's with the Communism fetish, anyway?

 

[fuelair]

Lenin? Ye flipping gods.

At this point, I wouldn't trust DOC to accurately describe the color of the sky.

What's with the Communism fetish, anyway?

Because the line is the perfect response to a quote about Ben Franklin saying religion was useful (which deponant knew not - or acted that way) which is quite correct and is not religious - as shown by the quote from IIRC Marx.

 

[drkitten]

Dr. Kitten is very smart. I'll let the rest be answered by Dr. Kitten, but yes most people here did know of these things.

Thanks, but I will cheerfully admit that I was unfamiliar with Coolidge's inaugural address. In that sense, I might have learned something from this thread if I had any confidence in DOC's ability to present a factually accurate statement.

On the other hand, we have the following (partial) list of other facts presented in this thread.

1. Jefferson was not a Christian
2. Nor was Franklin
3. Nor, as near as we can tell, was Washington
4. The legal principle of "separation of church and state" dates back to the very founding of the United States, and in fact, well before.
5. The United States was never founded as a "Christian" state, and explicitly rejected that idea as early as the Treaty of Tripoli
6. Not only Jefferson, but other "Founding Fathers" such as Madison, also explicitly endorsed the idea of a separation between church and state
7. Jefferson didn't even take part in the debate over the Constitutinal Amendments
8. The ACLU is not anti-religion
9. "Court costs and attorneys fees" are not a profit source for litigants
10. Jefferson did not establish legislative chaplains
11. ... nor military ones
12. .... nor put the word "God" into the US national motto
13. In fact, the US national motto does not include the word "God" and never has
14. ... nor did Jefferson establish the Biblical symbolism in the national seal
15. Neither Kennedy nor Barton are accurate historical sources or interpreters
16. For example, in the statement "Kennedy basically said Jefferson's period of living in France where his wife and daughter died during all the turmoil and revolution that was going on in the country really did a number on him," almost all of the assertions are entirely baseless.
17. There are not 20 depictions of the Decalogue on the SCOTUS building.
18. George Washington did not add "So help me God" to his Inaugural oath
19. Leo Pfeffer never worked for the ACLU

et cetera, et cetera. This gets boring. Anyway, all of these are facts, with supporting documentation, presnted in this thread that you have simply ignored.

You were wrong about all of those. And you continue to be wrong. That's the sense in which I wrote about "none of [the learning] by you." Because, despite twenty pages of factual presentation in this thread, you remain as pig-ignorant as you were on the first post. You've not learned a single thing, and you remain as mired in your unrealistic and unfounded prejudices as you were on page 1.

 

[Hawk one]

So Doc, will this research of yours include doing the necessary work to answer the following questions?

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1. In what case were these words uttered?
2. In what year were these words uttered?
3. In what year was the ACLJ founded?

Again, this is not a riddle. It's not a test, or at least not the kind of test you think it is. It's rather a test to see if you can

a) Learn to seek out proper sources
b) Overcome your personal prejudices in order to learn facts
c) Be more careful in the future about making claims without checking them first
d) Be able to admit your mistakes
e) Understand why you make so many mistakes and tell so many untruths.

So far, you're failing on all of these, and that says a lot about your integrity and honesty. Namely, it says that you haven't got either. I don't expect you to turn fully honest all of a sudden, but by researching and answering those questions, you might take the first step on a path that doesn't have to be filled with lies, more lies, and even more lies.

So, are you up for acting honestly, Doc? Will you research and answer these questions?

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

1. In what case were these words uttered?
2. In what year were these words uttered?
3. In what year was the ACLJ founded?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

What's with the Communism fetish, anyway?

He's an American conservative, and as such he's still fighting the Cold War and sees Communists in any movement that opposes his notions of traditional American order: Environmentalists are "Communists," civil rights activists are "Communists," atheists are "Communists...."

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

In fact, the US national motto does not include the word "God" and never has

Well, that's partially right. Up until 1956, our nation's motto was "E pluribus unum" or "From many, (comes) One." In 1956, right-wing Christians had it changed to our current and less constitutional motto "In God We Trust," thinking it would magically scare away the godless commies in the USSR. (Just like they added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, which was written by a Christian minister AND socialist by the way.)

 

[Cleon]

He's an American conservative, and as such he's still fighting the Cold War and sees Communists in any movement that opposes his notions of traditional American order: Environmentalists are "Communists," civil rights activists are "Communists," atheists are "Communists...."

Kinda makes me wonder what he'd do if he were approached by an actual communist. He'd probably scream and go looking for crucifixes or something.

 

[slingblade]

I grew up in the era of Duck and Cover and I'm not worried about Commies or Russkies anymore.

Except Tobias. And I'm not worried about him....just occasionally concerned....

 

[Ducky]

Thanks, but I will cheerfully admit that I was unfamiliar with Coolidge's inaugural address. In that sense, I might have learned something from this thread if I had any confidence in DOC's ability to present a factually accurate statement.

On the other hand, we have the following (partial) list of other facts presented in this thread.

1. Jefferson was not a Christian
2. Nor was Franklin
3. Nor, as near as we can tell, was Washington
4. The legal principle of "separation of church and state" dates back to the very founding of the United States, and in fact, well before.
5. The United States was never founded as a "Christian" state, and explicitly rejected that idea as early as the Treaty of Tripoli
6. Not only Jefferson, but other "Founding Fathers" such as Madison, also explicitly endorsed the idea of a separation between church and state
7. Jefferson didn't even take part in the debate over the Constitutinal Amendments
8. The ACLU is not anti-religion
9. "Court costs and attorneys fees" are not a profit source for litigants
10. Jefferson did not establish legislative chaplains
11. ... nor military ones
12. .... nor put the word "God" into the US national motto
13. In fact, the US national motto does not include the word "God" and never has
14. ... nor did Jefferson establish the Biblical symbolism in the national seal
15. Neither Kennedy nor Barton are accurate historical sources or interpreters
16. For example, in the statement "Kennedy basically said Jefferson's period of living in France where his wife and daughter died during all the turmoil and revolution that was going on in the country really did a number on him," almost all of the assertions are entirely baseless.
17. There are not 20 depictions of the Decalogue on the SCOTUS building.
18. George Washington did not add "So help me God" to his Inaugural oath
19. Leo Pfeffer never worked for the ACLU

et cetera, et cetera. This gets boring. Anyway, all of these are facts, with supporting documentation, presnted in this thread that you have simply ignored.

You were wrong about all of those. And you continue to be wrong. That's the sense in which I wrote about "none of [the learning] by you." Because, despite twenty pages of factual presentation in this thread, you remain as pig-ignorant as you were on the first post. You've not learned a single thing, and you remain as mired in your unrealistic and unfounded prejudices as you were on page 1.

Agreed. Don't forget DOC's pointing out Jefferson was the president of the DC school system and tried to point to a source that claimed Jefferson had them use bibles to teach students (which I thoroughly debunked.)

 

[Cleon]

I'll be back, doing more research.

Hoo boy, listen to them crickets chirp!

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC

5. The fact that Jefferson went to Christian services in the Rotunda of Congress building.

You have never, despite my repeated requests, shown a source for this other than one line in a publicly edited wiki. Therefore it is suspect until you show proper evidence.

Where have you been, I've already given the website (which includes sources) for this fact.



"Jefferson attended church at the Capitol while he was Vice President 5 and also throughout his presidency. The first Capitol church service that Jefferson attended as President was a service preached by Jefferson’s friend, the Rev. John Leland, on January 3, 1802. 6 Significantly, Jefferson attended that Capitol church service just two days after he penned his famous letter containing the “wall of separation between church and state” metaphor.

MANASSEH CUTLER
U. S. Rep. Manasseh Cutler, who also attended church at the Capitol, recorded in his own diary that “He [Jefferson] and his family have constantly attended public worship in the Hall.” 7 Mary Bayard Smith, another attendee at the Capitol services, confirmed: “Mr. Jefferson, during his whole administration, was a most regular attendant.” 8 She noted that Jefferson even had a designated seat at the Capitol church: “The seat he chose the first Sabbath, and the adjoining one (which his private secretary occupied), were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him and his secretary.” 9 Jefferson was so committed to those services that he would not even allow inclement weather to dissuade him; as Rep. Cutler noted: “It was very rainy, but his [Jefferson’s] ardent zeal brought him through the rain and on horseback to the Hall.” 10 Other diary entries confirm Jefferson’s attendance in spite of bad weather. 11

SOURCES:


[5] Bishop Claggett’s (Episcopal Bishop of Maryland) letter of February 18, 1801, reveals that, as vice- President, Jefferson went to church services in the House. Available in the Maryland Diocesan Archives.

[6] William Parker Cutler and Julia Perkins Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence of Rev. Manasseh Cutler (Cincinnati: Colin Robert Clarke & Co., 1888), Vol. II, p. 66, 119, letter to Joseph Torrey, January 4, 1802. Cutler meant that Jefferson attended church on January 3, 1802, for the first time as President. Bishop Claggett’s letter of February 18, 1801, already revealed that as Vice-President, Jefferson went to church services in the House.

[7] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 12, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 113).

[8] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[9] Smith, The First Forty Years, p. 13.

[10] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 119, in a letter to Dr. Joseph Torrey on January 3, 1803; see also his entry of December 26, 1802 (Vol. II, p. 114).

[11] Cutler and Cutler, Life, Journal, and Correspondence, Vol. II, p. 114, December 26, 1802.


From the article "Church in the U.S. Capitol" by David Barton

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=123#_ednref5