Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[RayG]

Look at any book on nature photography and see the crisp, clear pictures of species that have far less a breeding area than Bigfoot is reported to have.

Surely you realize those pictures are staged and the animals are all actors.

RayG

 

[fsol]

Are folks in Yakima experts in biomechanics? Did they know Patty walks like an Australopithecine?

Totally irrelevant. It doesn't even begin to make sense as an argument about whether people thought BH had a funny walk or not.

And here are those danged proportions again:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7484/2007/320/post-1-1081312863.jpg

And again totally irrelevant as has been pointed out again and again on this thread and others. Long arms do not rule out a guy in a suit even when compared to the actual guy in the suit when he is out of the suit.

 

[CLD]

It seems Bigfoot supporters have trouble understanding why the rest of world requires a higher standard of evidence than they've been able to collect after decade upon decade of fruitless searches. ...Having encountered many bears in my time, I find it hard to believe that within a week we wouldn't have a corpse from a hunter, a quality photograph, a live sample. Look at any book on nature photography and see the crisp, clear pictures of species that have far less a breeding area than Bigfoot is reported to have.

Agree. Observing the HUNDREDS of posts in this and other BF threads I got the impression there was some legitimate controversy being discussed. However I see it's just the same old story: believers insisting a belief is real, despite lack of definitive proof.

 

[William Parcher]

And here are those danged proportions again:

The comparative proportions between Patty and Bob Heironimus are similar, but in an important sense they are footnotes to the bigger similarity. Bob has always had a funny way of walking and his relatives and Yakima neighbors have commented on it. For whatever reasons, BH has an unusual way of striding and swinging his arms when walking. It looks like a "bipedal Hollywood ape". The important comparison in the above image is that when BH walks, his legs and arms perfectly coincide with Patty. I've said before that this is no blue-sky coincidence. It's because Bob Heironimus almost certainly was the guy in the Patty suit that was filmed by Roger Patterson. He confessed that he was and tells the story about it. As part of his own confession, he directly implicates Bob Gimlin as being part of the PGF hoax. It's really the PGHF hoax, because the guy in the suit is Heironimus. BH is the first of this trio to confess.

It's easy: there's no bigfoot at the end of the track; and it's not like walking 7 miles is such a difficult feat for a human with bigfoot boots, either.

Difficult or not, there is no proof that anyone walked 7 miles in fake Bigfoot boots.

Bigfeet are allergic to asphalt, it seems.

No they are not. According to many witness reports, they cross roads. Rather, Bigfoot is completely immune to being killed by any vehicle on those roads. No other NA mammal (including humans) has been able to accomplish that. We have no Bigfoot roadkills. Patterson himself claimed that Bigfoot had a close encounter with his car... "According to Harvey Anderson, Patterson claimed he had not only seen Bigfoot, but that it had touched his car and had actually lifted up one end."

 

[Belz...]

Difficult or not, there is no proof that anyone walked 7 miles in fake Bigfoot boots.

Are you saying that no bigfoot track's 7 miles long, or that the fact that they look like bigfoot tracks makes it impossible to tell, or what ?

 

[LAL]

Yeah, yeah, cry me a river. I get just as tired re-reading the same lame arguments and unsupported stories from proponents. Read Krantz, read Meldrum, David Thompson, Ape Canyon, PGF, Bossburg, Skookum cast, etc. etc. Been there, done that, ain't convinced. Bigfootery is no further ahead now than it was 40 years ago.

I'm not seeing anything new from you either. Back on filter you go.

 

[Correa Neto]

WP, your link has some information that is conveniently ignored by PGF defenders- other persons validate BH's story.

We are said that when it comes to reports of people seeing bigfoot we should at least accept there is a possibility they actually saw real bigfeet. But when it comes to people reporting seeing and making the Patty suit and BH wearing and testing it... Noooo, that's all a fabrication.

Aniway, Suppose the Patty suit is found at someone's closet. PGF defenders would just say "You can't prove they used it! You can't prove PGF shows that suit!"

I bet even if Patterson's wife or Gimlin said "Sorry folks, its was nothing but a hoax", some PGF defenders wouldstill cling to "Patty is a real bigfoot". Maybe they would blame the harrassment from denialist scoffics...

7 miles-long double tracks... Yeah. How can you be sure a bigfoot made it? May be a prank or a misdentification. Unreliable data.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not the "7 mile" trackway again? Sheesh! 7 miles my Aunt Fanny!

How about Noll, Green, Steenburg, Meldrum, Krantz

They are hoaxers, pure and simple, imo. They perpetuate the hoax. They fail in due diligence. They know better. Chilcutt as well.

 

[William Parcher]

$20 here and there, he paid for the trip to California and the publication of the book and bitched that Roger never held a steady job. He did it for his sister's sake, not Roger's. He did not have "money to burn".

You know that Al gave Roger $20 here and there in 1967? What's that in 2007dollars? The point is that between the Radford loan and the DeAtley money, Roger had enough to do what he did and to buy a Morris gorilla costume. Morris sold him one in May 1967, so obviously Roger got the money from somewhere.

So? That doesn't make him a master hoaxer. Are you going to bring up that he failed to return the camera on time too?

Patterson wasn't a master hoaxer. He chose to hoax an animal that doesn't even exist, and it was only ever believed by a small group of people. Sure, I'll bring up the unreturned camera. He was arrested for that.

Are you calling me something I can report you for?

I guess you can report anything you want. I'd suggest you go straight to James Randi and tell him I insinuated that you are a slimey weasel.

Nonsense. Look at his work. My kids were better when they were twelve. So was I.

Patterson's drawings are quite good. He could have been an illustrator. You and your kids were better? Did you guys work with leather and build saddles as well?

Kal Korff and Greg Long stood behind it. They were going to show the world. It was on a National Geographic special.

Nobody would think that suit was a good replica of Patty. It's red for one thing. Morris can no longer get black Dynel, let alone any other color.

It's the only one I know of that actually shows Bob in a Morris suit. Remember Morris? He claimed he, not Roger, made the suit and Heironimus claimed the guy from Planet of the Apes did (and also that Roger did).

Morris says that Patterson bought a gorilla suit from him and then proceeded to modify it in his own ways. He customized it to look like what a Bigfoot "should" look like.

No, he didn't. There's no "swimming motion", no "mountain gait".

No swimming motion or mountain gait shown by Patty. She just walks. I swear you will believe anything that tries to support Patty as a Bigfoot.

Are folks in Yakima experts in biomechanics? Did they know Patty walks like an Australopithecine?

You don't need to be a biomechanic expert to see that BH walks like Patty. Same stride, cadence and arm swinging. Nobody has seen an Australo walk. Maybe they didn't walk like Patty at all. You Pattycakes sure are a weird bunch. At least there's only a few of you out there.

Stranger yet is that he didn't know where the film site was, and that he and Morris described different suits. But Korff, Kocis and Long bought it all. And so do you.

BH knows he had to drive from Yakima to Bluff Creek to do the PGF. He even tells the story of how Roger didn't want to be seen in town with him right before the film date. Gotta pull off a hoax, you see.

Yeah, I took the Patty-is-a-fake bait... hook, line & sinker! I still got the hook stuck right there in my lip.

 

[William Parcher]

I too posted a message to Cryptomundo at the truck driver vs. biologist thread.

Here's what got posted:



I also asked this question (or something to this effect. I didn't save a copy.): "Does this standard apply to extraterrestrial alien sightings? And if not, why not?"

That question was edited out by the webmaster.

I don't see your post anywhere in that thread. Is it there?

 

[drapier]

I don't see your post anywhere in that thread. Is it there?

It was there on Monday, but now I can't find it. It looks as if the whole post has now been scrubbed from the thread. I didn't think it was that inflammatory.

 

[William Parcher]

You got powned by the Bigfooters behind the curtain.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You got powned by the Bigfooters behind the curtain.

Sheesh.. I just got powned in the ' scoftic ' thread ..

Just some simple counter points to the " Bigfoot buries their dead " suggestion..



For the Crytomundites who are lurking:


You should be ashamed for censoring honest debate ..

If you can't stand the heat .....

 

[drapier]

Now that I've had some time for self-reflection, I think my sin was that I made a humorous comment at JREF that, in a fanciful way, linked Loren Coleman to a Leprechaun sighting in Alabama.

I regret my errors.

 

[William Parcher]

The May/June 2007 issue of Skeptical Inquirer (Vol 31 No. 3) contains a review of Jeff Meldrum's recent Sasquatch book on pages 58-61.

It's a great book review. You guys did an excellent job. The closest Meldrum comes to applying science to Bigfoot is accurately measuring footprint casts and such. The whole of Bigfootery is based on pseudoscience and confirmation bias. Every single Bigfoot footprint cast in Jeff's collection is a fake. Every last one of them. But he gives the Bigfooters what they want. They love the idea that a science could possibly be built around this unfound creature and that a scientist is supporting it all. It's just smoke and mirrors. Bigfoot is a fantasy animal for those who find themselves intrigued with the idea of its existence. The cult or religion of Bigfoot belief is about immersing yourself in that world and associating with others who are thinking the same way. Those with an entrepreneurial sense can find ways to make money from other believers. Patterson was the iconic Bigfoot snake-oil saleman that is still pulling in dupes long after his death. There are others still engaging in this kind of Bigfoot hype for sale.

Meldrum went straight to the popular press with a hardcover book that costs nearly $30. I don't know the size of the intended audience, but nonetheless he must have thought he could sell it. More power to him and those who consume this stuff. I guess it's human nature for some folks to crank this stuff out and others to buy it. It's certainly within the spirit of free press and free enterprise. It's up to skeptics and critics to say that it doesn't properly conform to scientific methodology, inquiry and standard protocol. Jeff Meldrum gives the Bigfooters what they want. It's not much different than books promoting intelligent design written by scientists with just enough scientific flavor to satisfy those masses. Give em what they want and sell it by the pound.

I think that the most mature and logical course of any individual Bigfoot skeptic is to eventually step back from the maddening grind of arguing minutia of any proposed evidence and to see the big picture. Bigfootery is a belief system that has its own sets of affirmations, negations and rewards. Bigfooters are engaged in Bigfootery because they enjoy it. They are bringing their own personal resources and interests to the party. In many respects, Bigfoot skeptics are not much different.

Any naturalist is a prime candidate for being a Bigfoot skeptic. I suppose that for most of them, the seemingly endless argument just appears to be a big waste of their life. I can only hope that people on both sides gain some kind of enrichment and entertainment from it all. There is not much more that people can do but to simply enjoy their limited time on this planet. Really, who am I to say that believing in Bigfoot is the wrong way to live a life?

 

[Belz...]

Are you saying that no bigfoot track's 7 miles long, or that the fact that they look like bigfoot tracks makes it impossible to tell, or what ?

Say, WP, would you mind helping out with my question ? Thanks.

 

[LAL]

Meldrum went straight to the popular press with a hardcover book that costs nearly $30.

He was, in fact, asked to write it as a companion book to the show. I didn't pay $30. It's still $18.45 at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Sasquatch-Leg...3139020?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178237972&sr=8-1

I'll ignore the rest of you opinionated blah, blah, blah.

I don't need to ask if you've actually read the book, do I?

 

[Yeah_Right]

He was, in fact, asked to write it as a companion book to the show. I didn't pay $30. It's still $18.45 at Amazon

Which just goes to show you that they can't sell a stupid book for 30 bucks.

 

[William Parcher]

I don't see how people can dismiss things like 7 miles of double trackways in snow, but they do.

It's easy: there's no bigfoot at the end of the track; and it's not like walking 7miles is such a difficult feat for a human with bigfoot boots, either.

Difficult or not, there is no proof that anyone walked 7 miles in fake Bigfoot boots.

Are you saying that no bigfoot track's 7 miles long, or that the fact that they look like bigfoot tracks makes it impossible to tell, or what ?

Say, WP, would you mind helping out with my question ? Thanks.

Sorry for the delay in responding. There is an ongoing Bigfooter claim that a found Bigfoot trackway went on for 7 miles in snow and traversed terrain and incline that would be quite difficult for a human to accomplish. It's proposed that a hoaxer wearing fake feet would have had an extremely difficult project to accomplish, and would have been unlikely to even choose to do it at all.

The standard skeptical rebuttal to this is to simply pose the challenge to somehow provide proof that the original claim is true, and is not just a tall tale or fabrication. The claim was only provided by testimony (oral report converted to written word), and of course was originally given by a Bigfooter.

At this time, we should examine the actual original presentation (presumably as written testimony from either first- or second-hand) of the claimed trackway observation. Sometimes, Bigfooters spectacularly reinterpret original testimonies; or may obviously drag them far from their true context.

What I meant, was that nobody can factually show that anyone ever found a Bigfoot trackway (real or faked) that went on for 7 miles over extreme terrain in snow. Other JREF posters probably know more about the original claim than I do. I hope that they will carry on and expand on the viable skepticism of this particular claim.

In contrast to this Bigfooter claim, I offer a potentially-illustrative alternative situation. If we learned that someone had once claimed to find a Giant Panda trackway extending through 7 miles of snow across very rough terrain in China - we would have very limited ability to present a functionally skeptical rebuttal or outright rejection of the claim. This is because we already know that pandas exist, and we can probably easily imagine and justify that they could do this sort of thing and afterwards have their tracks found by a human. Bigfoot is not like the Giant Panda because we don't truly know that it exists.

 

[Correa Neto]

There it goes again...

Read Krantz...
Read Meldrum...
See the Skookum cast...
See PGF at a theater big screen...
See the footprint casts collections...

Mystical experiences that should convert the heathen!

What about backing the "bigfeet are real" claim with sound reasoning based on reliable data?

Read Krantz! Read Meldrum!" mantras will muffle the sound of chirpping crickets...