9/11 Wiki Project

[Slayhamlet]

I'm not entirely sure who gonzalez is, but there were no bombs in the basement of the towers, thus talking about them would be somewhat odd.

I'm sure he means William Rodriguez.

 

[israelside]

Substance is not always taken seriously unless it is written properly...understand?

You're right, the basic human nature is to consider writing or opinion more credible if it is written in a language (or slang) that you can understand ie "professionalism" (which is evil mostly). Given that most of you all here are older that only makes sense. However, even though this is true, it still doesn't mean what i am saying should be ignored or it should be considered false only because you might not "get" how i type...understand?

 

[israelside]

I didn't respond to your question in this one, and I don't want you to think that I'm dodging it.
I'm 52 years old, and am an engineering technician. You?

Ok, well direct me to a thread where you will discuss it, and I am 23 computer scientist in Texas...Baylor University graduate!

 

[Slayhamlet]

You're right, the basic human nature is to consider writing or opinion more credible if it is written in a language (or slang) that you can understand ie "professionalism" (which is evil mostly). Given that most of you all here are older that only makes sense. However, even though this is true, it still doesn't mean what i am saying should be ignored or it should be considered false only because you might not "get" how i type...understand?

Wait, professionalism is mostly evil???

 

[israelside]

OMG dude im totaly riting in teh nu limgo jest soes we canlike totallly wuenrdrtsnd ech otter! im so pwned!!!!111eleventyone!!!
My little thing about "Steely-eyed killer of the deep" is a humorous aside about my years of serving on submarines in the Navy. If that bothers you, well, get over it or get used to it. Don't really care, and doesn't prove anything about what I thought the discussion was about. You're right, it's not like Jesus, but then Jesus never spent 60 days on patrol underwater, so he's obviously a dink non-qual, and should have his liberty revoked until he gets his dolphins.
I want to be able to understand what the devil you're trying to say without having to translate it from teenspeak to adult english. If you won't put the effort into that, then obviously this is not a serious matter to you. So, since you don't want to take it seriously, I'm not going to take you seriously anymore, either.

Ok, this is just stupid now. Just because someone speaks in slang doesn't mean they are unintelligent if that's what you're getting at. English evolves as it gets older all languages do that are alive! Just because you don't know the lingo well or speak it surely doesn't mean its wrong, immature or beneath you. What it does mean is thats how younger people talk. You probably talked differently from your parents, just look at the old movies. Well congrats for being a navy vet, hoped you proved us proud Please don't say anything further about Jesus, you have no merit talking about him like that. I am speaking more serious, about more issues, about more facts than you are sir, so grow up and be the so called adult that you are!

 

[israelside]

Wait, professionalism is mostly evil???

Professionalism is pretend, or it often is not who someone really is. Meaning they "put on a show" to be professional. Now, if you are just being nice and giving someone a good deal and being real, that's how it should be if it is honest....but most business men/women "put on the front" for a professional job, and you know it!

 

[JimBenArm]

You're right, the basic human nature is to consider writing or opinion more credible if it is written in a language (or slang) that you can understand ie "professionalism" (which is evil mostly). Given that most of you all here are older that only makes sense. However, even though this is true, it still doesn't mean what i am saying should be ignored or it should be considered false only because you might not "get" how i type...understand?

"Professionalism" is evil. Really? You have some, well, interesting ideas there. Professionalism is doing what you say you will, keeping your word. It's acting in a manner that doesn't bring shame to yourself or the company that you work for. It's maintaining your ability to do your job, by keeping your skills current and relevent.
Yes, I can see how that's evil, no doubt.

 

[Ducky]

Were israelside to ask for an account on the wiki I would deny it based on the horrid display of lack of language skills in this thread alone.

 

[israelside]

Not one of the posts in this thread is a research paper, Israel, and yet the writing in all of them is clear and cogent except for yours. Why is that?

And yes, you are off topic. This thread is not a place for you to semi-intelligibly spew every pet conspiracy claim or tangential irrelevance you can think of and impudently demand answers for them. Please start a new thread for the issues you want debunkers to address, and try to keep it focused on one issue at a time. Many of them have been covered already, but maybe someone with a great deal more patience than I will indulge you.

lol, ok, let me waste more of my time by typing to you...so, the isi/cia connection to hijackers and drugs, the wtc 7 building collapse, the strange findings of passports by the hijackers in the wreckage are all so wild and outrageous the should never be discussed since they are just irrelevant, that's what you just said! it seems like this thread is getting more posts with my comments than the 911 wiki project, i did talk about that first and then it got into this, may be off subject but if people keep responding i will keep responding!

 

[israelside]

Were israelside to ask for an account on the wiki I would deny it based on the horrid display of lack of language skills in this thread alone.

My language skills may not compare to your brilliant mastery of the english language however I do address issues about 911 instead of cutting people down to bolster your own ego!

 

[Slayhamlet]

Ok, this is just stupid now. Just because someone speaks in slang doesn't mean they are unintelligent if that's what you're getting at. English evolves as it gets older all languages do that are alive! Just because you don't know the lingo well or speak it surely doesn't mean its wrong, immature or beneath you. What it does mean is thats how younger people talk. You probably talked differently from your parents, just look at the old movies. Well congrats for being a navy vet, hoped you proved us proud Please don't say anything further about Jesus, you have no merit talking about him like that. I am speaking more serious, about more issues, about more facts than you are sir, so grow up and be the so called adult that you are!

You weren't speaking in slang. You were typing desultory, incoherent sentences which were difficult for us to make out the exact meaning of. You've obviously made a conscious effort to write more intelligibly as a result of our criticism. That is a good thing, so thank you for that. Now, speaking informally (even with slang) is appropriate in many circumstances, such as among friends or with family members when addressing quotidian matters. On a message board that deals with making logically sound arguments and formulating one's positions with precision, this mode of language is not the best suited. Precise and well-selected language facilitates understanding between the participants in a debate, and as such it is valued here.

You do not have to write like I do, just try to use some basic punctuation and comlete sentences to help your readers. Spelling is not a big deal as long as we can still make out what words you mean. Your post that I am responding to right now is acceptable (I have no trouble comprehending it). Please continue in this vein.

 

[Ducky]

My language skills may not compare to your brilliant mastery of the english language however I do address issues about 911 instead of cutting people down to bolster your own ego!

Why would you think an AOL-speak typing kid on an internet forum would affect my ego one way or the other?

This is just further evidence that the Eternal September continues on. (And no, before you get all up in a twist, the Eternal September does not refer to 9/11.)

 

[Slayhamlet]

lol, ok, let me waste more of my time by typing to you...so, the isi/cia connection to hijackers and drugs, the wtc 7 building collapse, the strange findings of passports by the hijackers in the wreckage are all so wild and outrageous the should never be discussed since they are just irrelevant, that's what you just said! it seems like this thread is getting more posts with my comments than the 911 wiki project, i did talk about that first and then it got into this, may be off subject but if people keep responding i will keep responding!

I know people keep responding, but it is off topic nonetheless. If you do make a new thread specifically addressing something you have mentioned about 9/11 here, you will likely get more responses from people dealing specifically with that subject and less of all this other garbage, and your points will get more visibility in general. Not to mention it is more courteous that way.

 

[israelside]

The Commission did investigate this, and found nothing that compelling. I suspect they didn't press too hard, since by the time the Commission was formed Osama bin Laden and others had escaped into Pakistan, thus the USA needs Pakistan's help to capture him.
-Gumboot

Oh ya, the Taliban had Bin Laden for years but the CIA didn't want to negotiate with "terrorists", they also let tons of al queda pass into Pakistan unfettered. The ISI has had a long history of ties to Al Queda, being funding their initial members in the soviet-afghan war (from CIA funds) to illegal drugs trafficking of the cocaine in afghanistan. None of this was mentioned in the 911 report? Nor the fact that saied the paymaster was an ISI agent (or had close ties to them). Given they are the 911 Commission, with classified documents, why not make this a critical part of the document? Enough said...

How can this be "ignored" by the commission? The documented which only a few could review were highly sensitive classified documents pertaining to national security.
-Gumboot

Only 2 saw the documents out of what 10-12 members? That's not UNBIASED at all buddy!

I'm not entirely sure who gonzalez is, but there were no bombs in the basement of the towers, thus talking about them would be somewhat odd.
-Gumboot

Sorry i meant William Rodriguez, one of the janitors in thet WTC and who heard bombs in the basement (before any plane hit), watch his story on youtube!

Yes it was. Virtually all key political figures in the USA are either Republicans or Democrats.
-Gumboot

Well, enough said we need more independent folks in office to keep everyone honest don't you think? Why do I have to say this? Given this was the worse attack on America ever, why not have an truly independent investigation with alot of available funds?? The Commission only had 1.5 years and very little funding...compared to ole Clinton's scandal

You seem to be proposing that random civilians be given willy-nilly access to classified and highly sensitive documents. Such a notion is highly irresponsible and stupid.
-Gumboot

Nah, not random, but can we trust everyone who has access to these documents? No. Simple and honest, So that's why multiple people need to see them...not just any ole person but folks of credibility!

I haven't seen "Who Killed John O'Neil", but given that it's a fictional film, I'm not overly worried about that. I have seen "9/11 Press For Truth" and wasn't impressed by it. (I was especially disappointed to hear one of the "Jersey Girls" claim that the military did "nothing for two hours" while the attacks unfolded. This from a person who offers appeals to their own authority, claiming they have researched event in depth for years.

-Gumboot

WKJO is a "fictional film about non-fictional events" straigh from their website...the events are real and not made up, but the characters obviously are haha geez....and 1 belief by 1 of the jersey girls doesn't represent the entire movie, lol i guess it all is made up to you since you love and worship our leaders and take everything on the news for face value!

 

[israelside]

I know people keep responding, but it is off topic nonetheless. If you do make a new thread specifically addressing something you have mentioned about 9/11 here, you will likely get more responses from people dealing specifically with that subject and less of all this other garbage, and your points will get more visibility in general. Not to mention it is more courteous that way.

If you respond then i will respond...that's not being discourteous....but you're right i need to go to another thread, mabey those people will actually talk about important issues!

 

[Ducky]

israelside, what exactly does your posting have to do with a 9/11 wiki project? As far as I can tell you just want to argue points about 9/11. I would ask you take that to another thread.

 

[JimBenArm]

Ok, this is just stupid now. Just because someone speaks in slang doesn't mean they are unintelligent if that's what you're getting at. English evolves as it gets older all languages do that are alive! Just because you don't know the lingo well or speak it surely doesn't mean its wrong, immature or beneath you. What it does mean is thats how younger people talk. You probably talked differently from your parents, just look at the old movies. Well congrats for being a navy vet, hoped you proved us proud Please don't say anything further about Jesus, you have no merit talking about him like that. I am speaking more serious, about more issues, about more facts than you are sir, so grow up and be the so called adult that you are!

I did not say your lingo is wrong. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I did say that if you want to be taken seriously, you have to communicate in a serious manner.
You brought Jesus into this, not me. If the Lord doesn't have a sense of humor, then that's my problem not yours. If it offends you, go somewhere else. It is within the rules of the forum, so too bad, so sad. By the way, Jesus is coming, so you better look busy!
Don't really see anything to take serious in this post of yours either. You claim to have presented facts, yet all I've seen is unsubstantiated opinion and attacks on me. I know that scores major points on the LC boards, but doesn't work too well around these parts. Sorry, try again. Maybe if you keep at it you won't come off so poorly as you have so far.

 

[gumboot]

Oh ya, the Taliban had Bin Laden for years but the CIA didn't want to negotiate with "terrorists", they also let tons of al queda pass into Pakistan unfettered.

The CIA? The CIA is an intelligence agency. They don't "negotiate" with anyone. Prior to 9/11 the Taliban were recognised by the United Nations as a major threat to global peace and security. Osama bin Laden was small fry.

The ISI has had a long history of ties to Al Queda, being funding their initial members in the soviet-afghan war (from CIA funds)

This is simply not true. The ISI certainly supported the mujahideen - training many - and channelled international support to the mujahideen - including weapons (not money) from the USA and funds from nations such as Saudi Arabia.

However this had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The precursor of Al Qaeda was Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK) - a private organisation started by Osama bin Laden and Dr Abdullah Azzam. MAK trained its own fighters, and their funds were provided by their own private fundraising network in many western countries (including over 30 offices in the USA). MAK did not receive weapons, fighters, or money from the USA or Pakistan.

to illegal drugs trafficking of the cocaine in afghanistan. None of this was mentioned in the 911 report?

Al Qaeda carried out the 9/11 attacks. Not the Taliban, not the ISI, and not Afghani Mujahideen. Al Qaeda was not involved in drug smuggling from Afghanistan (which, by the way, is opium, not cocaine - cocaine comes from South America - 75% of it from Columbia).

Nor the fact that saied the paymaster was an ISI agent (or had close ties to them). Given they are the 911 Commission, with classified documents, why not make this a critical part of the document? Enough said...

Al Qaeda got its funding from private sources, not governments. Radical Islam has a long history of sophisticated funding sources.

Only 2 saw the documents out of what 10-12 members? That's not UNBIASED at all buddy!

I'm not your buddy. There is no need for all of the members to see highly sensitive documents. It would be an unsafe breach of national security.

Sorry i meant William Rodriguez, one of the janitors in thet WTC and who heard bombs in the basement (before any plane hit), watch his story on youtube!

I'm very familiar with his story. The above statements indicate you are not.

Well, enough said we need more independent folks in office to keep everyone honest don't you think? Why do I have to say this?

Conspiracy theorists think the government did it. By definition, therefore, anyone "in office" is in on it, and not independent.

Given this was the worse attack on America ever, why not have an truly independent investigation with alot of available funds??

The FBI's criminal investigation involved over half of the organisation's special agents and is the largest criminal investigation in US history. The combined investigations into 9/11 constitute the largest investigation into a single event in human history.

Nah, not random, but can we trust everyone who has access to these documents? No. Simple and honest, So that's why multiple people need to see them...not just any ole person but folks of credibility!

This is illogical. We can't trust the few people who have access to secret documents so we should let more people have access to them? These documents are secret for a reason.

WKJO is a "fictional film about non-fictional events" straigh from their website...the events are real and not made up, but the characters obviously are haha geez....

It's a work of fiction. End of story.

and 1 belief by 1 of the jersey girls doesn't represent the entire movie, lol i guess it all is made up to you since you love and worship our leaders and take everything on the news for face value!

That was simply one example. The film is full of poor reasoning and hideous errors. And while only one Jersey Girl said it, the others supported it.

I love and worship "our" leaders? And which leaders would these be that are "ours"?

I love my family and friends, and my country. I don't believe I've ever worshipped anything in my life since I was 9 and stopped being a Christian.

-Gumboot

 

[Orphia Nay]

Since neither debunkers nor twoofers can resist debating in this thread, I've taken the 9/11 Skeptic Wiki discussion to a new thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81144

 

[israelside]

Yes, I've read the entire thing, and followed many of the links provided to news articles (when they worked, that is).

I've got much of my information from the mainstream media, rather than the 9/11 Commission Report.

I have a number of issues with the 9/11 Timeline. The main one is that clearly the author has an agenda, not to determine truth, but to foster confusion and uncertainty.

No effort is made to cross-reference or fact check articles, and all media articles are given equal credibility.

The end result is literally thousands of articles which can pretty much present whatever picture you want them to present.

And herein likes my second biggest concern.

The author chooses which part of the article to highlight. Most people who read it do not go and read every single linked article (indeed, many of the links don't work). Further, the author then adds significant amounts of speculative exposition about the articles, designed to manipulate a reader's interpretation of the information. Reading the articles reveals that some contain information (which the author fails to mention) that directly refutes the speculation offered by the author.

A very simple example revolved around the alleged NORAD wargames.

Numerous articles cite "Operation Northern Vigilance" as a wargame undertaken that day, involving NORAD aircraft and pretend attackers in the form of inputs.

A brief effort at investigating this would reveal that Operation Northern Vigilance was not an exercise in any form, but a real-world operational deployment (indeed this fact is evident in the name itself).

As such, Northern Vigilance has no bearing on the NORAD CONUS Region Air Defense mission and does not involve "inputs" of any kind.

Rather than determine this simple information, Thompson blindly presents incorrect media articles and then speculates based on them.

Ok, first off, I see the author as presenting a summary of the articles from main sources (like the norad website) where he often times cuts and pastes the summary. His design was to present artilces (from all over the globe) to be available by anyone who wanted to see a certain side of a story, his design was not to make the article out to be scripture or even correct. That alone makes his work credible, since he is not cherry picking stories he just likes...obviously if you read anything about the twin towers or the isi or anything of importance. To say all the articles are given equal credibility is to allow the user to make their own mind up, but he does not put in absurd articles from say the "satanic killers club" or something dumb like that. All the articles together should tie together points that are true and points that seem out there...hence the user should have a better view of the story if he/she reads all the accounts of the issue and makes their own mind up!

Ok, i studied the operation northern vigilance page and again i see your bias, true some of the stories don't explain the entire article (that's why you got the link to read if for yourself), but the author does a good job of explaining the skeleton of the story so that you can fill in the details for yourself, he might be biased in some areas, but we all are to some degree! Not enough of a reason to cut down the site as an act of rebellion against the US Govt as you somehow hope we believe! Also, he doesn't say ONV was just an exercise, he says the russians where doing exercies...."NORAD begins Operation Northern Vigilance. For this military operation, it deploys fighters to Alaska and Northern Canada to monitor a Russian air force exercise in the Russian Arctic and North Pacific Ocean, scheduled for September 10 to September 14. " did you just slap this together? For being a group that puts articles together and isn't paid by mulinational corporations they do a good job of being "unbiased" and covering alot of alternative media aswell as mainstream!

Another problem with the mainstream media is sourcing. Often a topic will be covered in multiple media outlets, and this looks good. However closer inspection often reveals that all of these outlets got the story from the same source, thus in actual fact the story is not collaborated at all. This is more common than you might think.

Ya, same sources are common, but does that mean we can always trust media with sources that are abundant? If I report someone shot a man on my website with no other sources does that make me unreliable? Because I am a "primary" witness, I am more reliable...some stories might come from media that had first hand witnesses, not to say they all do...but you can't just make it black and white, for example, because the indian media reports pakistani isi chief wired 100 K to mohammad atta with few sources doesn't mean they are wrong, but it does mean we need to find more sources if available or try to validate their own experience of the situation (primary witness etc)!

All media outlets love tragedy murder and violence. Indeed fringe outlets such as Alex Jones' "Prison Planet" only deal in tragedy murder and violence.

Ya, that's because Alex focuses his info on exposing criminal activity, his radio show often times has ad's about healing products, religious things at times, helping people, water purification etc. His movies he tries to inform folks of evil's in the world...but reality isn't nice or pretty and it is scarry, were you born yesterday? Have you ever listened to him? I do alot, I have met his father (i live in waco, 1.5 hrs north of austin) and found his dad to be a very nice man that is a dentist and loves to help people in need....similar to his son! Does Alex have faults, we all do, does he do bad things, sure...but please until you listen to him alot don't comment about him.