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Is Marijuana Harmless?

Why would you say people don't get high on something the first time? Is there some blockage to the brain until you smoke it twice? I think not. Would you say the same of cocaine, crack, or heroine?

Again, this is why anecdotes are completely useless.

Hhhhmmm...this has been my experience, as well. I have talked to many people who agree, telling me that they never got high until the second time.
I wonder if something happens in the brain after the first time?

I'm not saying you're wrong here. But perhaps your cannabis was laced with something?

I'd be surprised if this was just an urban legend...although I'm open to the possibility.

Hmm, you seem to have read too much into parts of my post, and ignored other parts. Did I not suggest healthy forms of escape/taking a break? Even watching TV or playing video games is less risky than drinking every day. I also said I needed to learn to escape, or take a break, to manage stress.

Some people get very emotional about this topic because cannabis, and other illegal drugs, create strong emotional ties. If you're like most people, you'll seldom have a profound experience while playing a video game or watching TV. (Although, of course, I have. Especially video games.)
Cannabis, on the other hand, can put you in a much different headspace, and be rather profound quite often. However, it's much harder to "turn off" than your TV!

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with it. Those morons who tricked you don't represent the majority of the cannabis community, and operating heavy machinery while stoned is recognized as a Bad Idea.
I hope that one day you'll be able to try it again, around safer conditions. You'll have a much better experience.

Check out this website for more information:
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis.shtml
 
:eye-poppi Does Tyler have someone else, professional type (a good one, which can sometimes be hard to find) to help him through this? Sometimes group therapy can be very long-term and effective too.

From Boo's link previously:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Health+issues+and+the+effects+of+cannabis


Oh darn. I'm too lazy to go back and grab the part of Boo's quote, to bold the adjective mild.

This is why employing mental-health professionals is overkill. Tyler, also, is not the type for group hugs.

He went away, but left a little note for me:

Well the first days are the hardest days,
Don't you worry any more,
'Cause when life looks like easy
Street, there is danger at your door.
Think this through with me, let me know your mind.
Woh - oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?:)
 
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I wrecked a car. The one time I tried pot. I wrecked my beater car by hitting a curb while driving really fast. I had no idea that stuff affected people so badly. I was totally out of it. I was lucky I came out of the car within walking distance from home, so I could go sober up. I was lucky I didn't take anyone out with me.
I have never operated a motor vehicle under the influence of anything stronger than a cold tablet. I cannot imagine wanting to do so, at any time, for any reason. I have never encouraged anyone to do so, and have regularly discouraged people I thought might listen. It's a really dumb thing to do. Your story is different; I've never talked with anyone who didn't realize that operating any kind of heavy machinery (and a car is heavy machinery) is a Bad Idea when under the influence of anything at all. Our cultural milieus growing up must have been very different. This lesson was drummed into me at least once a week for many years; I got it at school, on the TV, and in those little talks parents like to have every so often, and I never got a license until I was in my 20s.

These dweebs I knew heard that I had never tried pot. So they encouraged me to try it. Then they thought it would be REALLY FUNNY to send me to the store in my own car.

I had never heard that stuff would make me just as out of it as alcohol, or worse. I've never driven drunk, so I don't really know. I thought it was just some simple giggly high that would happen. I never thought I shouldn't be driving.

I shouldn't have drove that car that night. I got to learn the hard way because nobody was honest with me about what it does to the head. Instead I was around a bunch of @sshats that thought the whole thing was hilarious.

I haven't touched it since, and it didn't help my opinion of potheads.
You are prejudging. This is almost always a mistake. I agree they were @sshats, and I would have agreed with that assessment when I was fifteen, without hesitation. Unfortunately, @sshats are everywhere; they are not restricted to the ranks of stoners. In fact, in my experience, they are less common among stoners than elsewhere. Most @sshats like to get drunk and get in fights, or do coke or speed, and get in fights, until all their teeth are gone and their noses have holes in them.

I can understand your opinion, and see now the reason for your emotional reaction. I sympathize, and empathize. But I think you have taken the reaction too far, into frank prejudice.

As has been said elsewhere, your reaction the first time is unusual, anecdotally speaking; most people I know who smoke pot tell me that they also didn't get high the first time. I, however, like you, did. It was pretty mild, but interesting. I'll be very frank; I've done about everything there was to do in my sphere (growing up in Silicon Valley in the 1970s), but I drew the line at animal tranquilizers. Phencyclidine never interested me. I have done DMT, LSD, cocaine, methaqualone, barbiturates, methedrine, and once smoked black liquid opium; I also once did X (ectasy) but didn't get much out of it.

I have never used an injected drug that I was not given by a doctor in a medical setting. I have never tried phencyclidine or any other animal tranquilizer, heroin or any other opiate (except the opium the one time, and once under medical supervision, after a broken arm, I was given codeine- and when I ran out and WANTED MORE I understood the risk that opiates pose and that is why I avoided them; the doctor asked if I wanted more and I said, "hell, no, I'd rather hurt than get addicted to that crud"). The only one I liked better than pot was LSD. The problem with LSD is that if you take it often enough, you're not well connected to reality any more, and I didn't want that either. The riskiest drug I have ever seen is cocaine; its primary effect, in my experience, is to make you want more. I suspect that opiates are worse in this regard, based on my experience with codeine.

I strongly suspect that it is far easier to use only a little bit of pot occasionally than either alcohol or tobacco; in the case of tobacco, I am nearly certain of this. In this setting, that makes it safer than either, though as with all drugs, not entirely safe. I have seen many violent drunks; I have rarely seen a violent stoner. Stoned people are generally cautious people, in my experience. Of all the drugs I have done, or seen done, these three in my experience are the safest; again, with all the provisos regarding the safety of any recreational drug. People become alcoholics; people become permanent stoners; people become addicted to nicotine. But the first and last are far more common than the second, in my experience. I have only once seen anyone fired for getting stoned on the job; but I have seen quite a few canned for drinking, or for doing stupid things when they were drunk.

So that's my opinion, and my anecdotes. Do with it what you will. I hope you come to a less prejudiced opinion as a result, but I don't blame you for your opinion.
 
Do you really feel that is ethical?

Properly regulated and taxed?

I don't consider it unethical.

What I do consider unethical is to take a few southern states, that once were economic giants but fell out during the Civil War, and then forcing them to make their wages in coal mines; which is a very "fluid" business (as it shuts down and starts up at random, based on price fluctuations).

And I do not have your prejudiced, preconceived notions of Marijuana.
 
I have never operated a motor vehicle under the influence of anything stronger than a cold tablet. I cannot imagine wanting to do so, at any time, for any reason. I have never encouraged anyone to do so, and have regularly discouraged people I thought might listen. It's a really dumb thing to do. Your story is different; I've never talked with anyone who didn't realize that operating any kind of heavy machinery (and a car is heavy machinery) is a Bad Idea ...

... Unfortunately, @sshats are everywhere; they are not restricted to the ranks of stoners. In fact, in my experience, they are less common among stoners than elsewhere. Most @sshats like to get drunk and get in fights, or do coke or speed, and get in fights, until all their teeth are gone and their noses have holes in them.

...

As has been said elsewhere, your reaction the first time is unusual, anecdotally speaking; most people I know who smoke pot tell me that they also didn't get high the first time...

..The only one I liked better than pot was LSD. The problem with LSD is that if you take it often enough, you're not well connected to reality any more, and I didn't want that either. The riskiest drug I have ever seen is cocaine; its primary effect, in my experience, is to make you want more. I suspect that opiates are worse in this regard, based on my experience with codeine.

I strongly suspect that it is far easier to use only a little bit of pot occasionally than either alcohol or tobacco; in the case of tobacco, I am nearly certain of this. In this setting, that makes it safer than either, though as with all drugs, not entirely safe. I have seen many violent drunks; I have rarely seen a violent stoner. Stoned people are generally cautious people, in my experience. Of all the drugs I have done, or seen done, these three in my experience are the safest; again, with all the provisos regarding the safety of any recreational drug...

So that's my opinion, and my anecdotes. Do with it what you will. I hope you come to a less prejudiced opinion as a result, but I don't blame you for your opinion.


agree on almost all points. good post.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6606931.stm

In the news today.....

An Institute of Psychiatry team gave healthy volunteers the active ingredient tetrahydrocannabinol (THC).

They then recorded reduced activity in an area of the brain which keeps inappropriate thoughts at bay.


A separate study has shown that one of these ingredients - cannabidiol (CBD) - has the potential to dampen down psychotic symptoms, and could form the basis of new treatments.

The research will be discussed at a conference on the impact of cannabis use to be held at the Institute of Psychiatry this week.

Experts are concerned that street cannabis is becoming increasingly potent. It is thought that average THC content has risen from 6% to 12% in recent years.

The Institute of Psychiatry study gave THC, CBD or placebo capsules to adult male volunteers who had not abused cannabis.

They then carried out brain scans, and a battery of tests, and found that those who took THC showed reduced activity in an area of the brain called the inferior frontal cortex, which keeps inappropriate thoughts and behaviour, such as swearing and paranoia in check.

The effects were short-lived, but some people appeared more vulnerable than others.

In a second study, a team from Yale University administered THC intravenously.

Even at relatively low doses, they found 50% of healthy volunteers began to show symptoms of psychosis.

Volunteers who already had a history of psychotic symptoms appeared to be particularly vulnerable.

Side effects

A third study, by the University of Cologne, compared the effect of CBD and a commonly used anti-psychotic medicine, Amisulpride, on 42 patients with a history of schizophrenia.

After four weeks both groups showed a reduction in psychotic symptoms, but the CBD group were less prone to side effects, such as muscle stiffness and weight gain.

The researchers warned that THC and CBD compete with each other biochemically, so a rise in THC levels would blunt any positive impact of CBD.

Professor Robin Murray, a consultant psychiatrist at the Institute of Psychiatry, said the research provided the strongest evidence that cannabis had a significant impact on the brain.

He said proving a long-term effect was extremely difficult, as it was not ethical or feasible to stimulate long-term psychosis in volunteers.

However, he said: "If something has an active effect in inducing the symptoms of psychosis after one dose, then it would not be at all surprising if repeated use induced the chronic condition."

Professor Murray also warned that the high potency cannabis now widely available was likely to pose a much bigger risk to health than the significantly weaker formulations of previous years.

"It is similar to comparing the effect of drinking a glass of wine at the weekend with drinking a bottle of vodka every day."
 

...Professor Murray also warned that the high potency cannabis now widely available was likely to pose a much bigger risk to health than the significantly weaker formulations of previous years.

"It is similar to comparing the effect of drinking a glass of wine at the weekend with drinking a bottle of vodka every day."

fixed it for you, Prof. Murray:

"It is as far-fetched as comparing the effect of smoking strong ganja with drinking a bottle of vodka every day."


We don't see pot-heads with bruises on their faces because they fell down. At worst, the pot-heads are standing on line at the ice-cream parlor, eyes a little glazed (unless they use Visine). Thirty points of IQ lopped right off the top. Good consumers every one.
 
...Professor Murray also warned that the high potency cannabis now widely available was likely to pose a much bigger risk to health than the significantly weaker formulations of previous years.

"It is similar to comparing the effect of drinking a glass of wine at the weekend with drinking a bottle of vodka every day."

fixed it for you, Prof. Murray:

"It is as far-fetched as comparing the effect of smoking strong ganja with drinking a bottle of vodka every day."


We don't see pot-heads with bruises on their faces because they fell down. At worst, the pot-heads are standing on line at the ice-cream parlor, eyes a little glazed (unless they use Visine). Thirty points of IQ lopped right off the top. Good consumers every one.
Really? facial brusies are your indicator for safety levels?
 
You're right to question what is only bad rhetoric. Or flippancy.

calebprime has been on record saying that people shouldn't drive when they smoke pot. This is so obvious that it isn't interesting to discuss. But it is the only right stance.

Obviously, the same goes for heavy machinery, power tools, etc.

calebprime also believes that people who ride bikes should wear helmets (but everyone would be safer if they wore helmets all the time, especially in the car.)

calebprime believes that people should do whatever the 8 they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt others. When it comes to the issue of insurance rates, cp believes this is merely a technical problem.

cp believes that people fill the gaps in their knowledge with analogies to something better-known. In the case of weed, it's the comparison to alcohol. The problem is, they are different enough that the comparison is always misleading.

cp believes that studies trump everything, but ordinary observation--day in, day out--if it is not too biased--gives good rules of thumb.

such as:

pot makes you a little stupid.
pot makes you more likely to wreck your car.
pot 8's up your lungs.
pot lowers your mental horizons.
pot takes away about 20-30 IQ points almost immediately--mostly in frontal-lobe skills: shifting attention, being socially adept and aware, etc.

pot is great for bad jam sessions.

But no. Tyler's friends (like Dale) got into big trouble with depressants like alcohol, quaaludes, and barbiturates. This is the "stumblebum" effect cp is attempting to contrast with the "stupid stoner" effect.

Don't go to cp for thoughtful assessments of cost/benefit analyses or a vision of a just society, or indeed many things that others around here are much better at.
 
cp likes third person.:D

Understood. I simply wish to distill the argument to the core subjects.

Marijuana isn't harmless. The question is, is Marijuana so harmful that this outweighs the cost and harm of keeping it illegal?
 
cp likes Bob Dole.


What I don't really understand about cost/benefit analyses is: How do you factor in, um, incommensurate things?

The benefit of no longer having jack-booted storm troopers breaking down Grannie's door?

The cost of Tommy doing worse in school and hanging with the stoners?

The cost of accidents that may or may not have weed as a contributing factor?

The benefit of new tax revenues vs. the cost of loss of big black-market profits?

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'd just like to be educated how it's done.

well, i suggest you read about c/b analysis here and here. (bogus links)
 
pot 8's up your lungs.
Not necessarily.

Although cannabis may have potential therapeutic value, inhalation of a combustion product is an undesirable delivery system. The aim of the study was to investigate vaporization using the Volcano((R)) device as an alternative means of delivery of inhaled Cannabis sativa. Eighteen healthy inpatient subjects enrolled to compare the delivery of cannabinoids by vaporization to marijuana smoked in a standard cigarette. One strength (1.7, 3.4, or 6.8% tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)) and delivery system was randomly assigned for each of the 6 study days. Plasma concentrations of Delta-9-THC, expired carbon monoxide (CO), physiologic and neuropsychologic effects were the main outcome measures. Peak plasma concentrations and 6-h area under the plasma concentration-time curve of THC were similar. CO levels were reduced with vaporization. No adverse events occurred. Vaporization of cannabis is a safe and effective mode of delivery of THC. Further trials of clinical effectiveness of cannabis could utilize vaporization as a smokeless delivery system.

That was the abstract of this study:

Title: Vaporization as a smokeless cannabis delivery system: a pilot study.
Author(s): Abrams DI, Vizoso HP, Shade SB, Jay C, Kelly ME, Benowitz NL
Journal, Volume, Issue: Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2007 Apr 11; [Epub ahead of print]
Major outcome(s): Vaporization of cannabis is a safe and effective mode of delivery of THC

taken from that link:

http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/nav/home-science.htm

Difficult for recreational use outside the house though as long as it is illegal.

Police officer: So, why exactly are you carrying this thing with you when you are going out on Friday night? Vaporizing the plants you find along your way, yes? Would you mind me searching you?
 
yes, i've heard of this. a better technology.

Somewhere I read of a Canadian professor who was trying to win the right to use cannabis on campus, and he was using a vaporization thingy. Very civilized.

"Police officer: So, why exactly are you carrying this thing with you when you are going out on Friday night? Vaporizing the plants you find along your way, yes? Would you mind me searching you?"

What I learned on this very site from, of all people, a police officer, is that the answer to that question is "No. um, I mean yes, I would mind. I mean you can't do that unless I say it's ok, right? I know my rights. Ok, I don't really know my rights, but I watch Cops."

Edit to add: But the vaporization study didn't look at long-term effects, did it?
 
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Quote by Jeff Corey:
Telling kids that there is physical dependence when there are no hard data for it is as grave a mistake as the old "stepping stone" theory that pot invariably leads to heroin.
Propaganda, no matter how well-meaning the goal is, has the self-defeating property of biting itself in the keister when one fonsoon is discovered.

I never tried anything other than pot, and had no desire to. I always had strong will power in assessing risks.

Interestingly, I was also a heravy smoker of tobacco and I was able to quit cold turkey with no withdrawl symptoms other than missing the habit itself. This went on for several years. But I never had my mood altered nor anything else in the first 2 weeks of quitting.
 
I suspect that regarding a couple posts above stating that people who smoked pot the first time got no effects were probably apprehensive when they tried it the first time, and went either easy on the stuff, and/or, they were so mentally charged that this overrode any high they were mildly getting. You DO have a certain mental ability to sober up when you have to. Like...if you are pulled over (or simply see them behind you in your rear view mirror) by the cops.

Then the next time, after they said to themselves that.."Hey...THAT stuff ain't so bad!"...then relaxed and let their minds go while they partook.
 
I suspect that regarding a couple posts above stating that people who smoked pot the first time got no effects were probably apprehensive when they tried it the first time, and went either easy on the stuff, and/or, they were so mentally charged that this overrode any high they were mildly getting. You DO have a certain mental ability to sober up when you have to. Like...if you are pulled over (or simply see them behind you in your rear view mirror) by the cops.

"Sobering up" is somewhat of a myth. "Sobering up" is really just being in a more alert mode than you once were; you do not really become "sober".

In the same sense, if I drink many drinks and become stone drunk, I could try to "sober up" by drinking coffee; but coffee doesn't actually do anything. It gives me something else to drink, but that's about it; it also makes me more alert, but it does not make me any less drunk. Sure, I'm an alert drunk, but that doesn't mean that my sense of balance and coordination have come back to me. Nor would my thinking process be less impaired; being more alert and drunk may mean that I think faster than when not alert and drunk, but compared to not being drunk at all, it's not much of an improvement.
 
Regarding the relevance of research experiments into the effects of THC - do remember that although THC is the main active constituent, there are a number of different cannabinoids and psycho-actives in cannabis that have a large influence on the overall effects and experience of the drug. In addition, particularly in the UK, low cost 'street hash' is often adulterated with toxic fillers (don't ask), which are also likely to have an influence.

IMO, trying to generalise to real-world cannabis use and problems from experiments with pure THC is somewhere between generalising alcohol use and problems from pure ethyl alcohol, and generalising food consumption and its problems from experiments with pure chocolate cake & donuts.
 

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