Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[LAL]

Yes, I've seen it. Have you seen the cryptomundo blog on the issue? It's two pages back in the older posts. Have you ever considered that Ostman's account of the talking BF family may have given Patterson inspiration for designing a female bigfoot?

Nope.

Self proclaimed BF investigators haven't been found making hoaxes?

Not the reputable ones. You're refering to Freeman, I assume. Who else?

And that is because...?

Those who want it to be a man in a suit have to hold Roger responsible for it. When it's pointed out he didn't have the money, it becomes a lousy, falling apart suit. When it's pointed out he plain wasn't smart enough he becomes a homespun genius. He was in a no-win situation.

Yes. You have there one group of images showing what is know to be a man in a suit and another of what may be a man in a suit or an unidentified North American bipedal primate. We have reliable evidence of lots of people in suits but none for the U.N.A.B.P.

That's Bob Heironimus himself in a Morris costume, built for the recreation to end all recreations.

Willam Parcher seems too fixated on other matters to notice, so I thought I'd ask you. Does BH really look like Patty?

Again, is it really necessary to cling to the PGF?

I don't cling to it at all. The would-be debunkers seem to be the ones who keep bringing it up.

Right, another 'unfortunately'. That's too bad.

Answers the question why hair isn't found in nests, anyway. In that case it was.

I ran across this while searching today and thought Correa might like to see it (I still have him on Ignore). It mentions the Daegling paper on tooth wear we talked about.

"Of course the relative quantities of phytoliths do not directly address dietary composition, since different plants have different phytolith abundances. Likewise, one might speculate that the phytoliths on fossil teeth represent foods eaten near the time of death -- a "last meal" effect. This might explain the apparent evidence for one kind of fruit in the Gigantopithecus data: the individual died at the time that fruit was in season. In any event, Ciochon and colleagues (1990) conclude it likely that Gigantopithecus had a very broad diet, that nonetheless included bamboo as a staple. In support of this, they cite an examination of tooth wear by Daegling and Grine (1989 in abstract; later published in 1994 in SAJS) that found Gigantopithecus microwear to be similar to chimpanzees. Chimpanzees themselves eat a majority of fruit, with smaller proportions of leaves, insects, and meat."

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/apes/gigantopithecus/

<emphasis mine>

 

[William Parcher]

I don't know where the Gifford Pinchot National Forest is, but I do know one thing -- it's "not Bigfoot country." I've learned that much from 4 Bigfoot threads here... anyplace there are lots of people wandering around and not seeing Bigfoot is "not Bigfoot country." "Bigfoot country" might start a quarter mile away, but all those people are in the wrong place to see Bigfoot.

See, this place is educational.

It doesn't matter where GPNF is located. Bigfoot is everywhere and nowhere. It's because the creature is both completely elusive (where it is) and transitory (where it is going). They say that Bigfoot migrates. He can't be found where he parks himself, and he can't be otherwise found because he's truckin'. He has been seen at least 36 times in Iowa because folks have seen him there at least 36 times. They say he might not live permanently there, and only follows the waterways as safe corridors leading to seasonal fruits, nuts and deer livers.

Mabel, what the hell is that bellowing racket coming from down by the creek?
Oh, that's those high-strung Bigfoot males encounterin' and hollerin' at each other as they move through our property. They be migratin'. Did you forget when we talked about this last year?

You see, Bigfoot is always truckin'...

Truckin', up to Buffalo. Been thinkin', you got to mellow slow
Takes time, you pick a place to go, and just keep truckin' on...

Truckin', I'm a goin' home. Whoa whoa baby, back where I belong,
Back home, sit down and patch my bones, and get back truckin' on...

You see, it's mostly about food availability for a wild bipedal primate. But there is always that open road lure to just keep on truckin'. Truck on Bigfoot. You keep truckin' dude!

 

[William Parcher]

Those who want it to be a man in a suit have to hold Roger responsible for it. When it's pointed out he didn't have the money, it becomes a lousy, falling apart suit.

Roger Patterson's brother-in-law DeAtley had money to burn and invested in Roger. You already know that. Vilma Radford loaned money to Roger, which he subsequently defaulted on. You already know that. Lu, are you some kind of slimey weasel for saying these things?

When it's pointed out he plain wasn't smart enough he becomes a homespun genius. He was in a no-win situation.

Patterson was a gifted craftsman and artist. You already know this. Are you being a weasel?

That's Bob Heironimus himself in a Morris costume, built for the recreation to end all recreations.

That recreation sucks eggs and you already know this.

Willam Parcher seems too fixated on other matters to notice, so I thought I'd ask you. Does BH really look like Patty?

When he was videotaped walking for KATU.com, he walked exactly like Patty. Folks in Yakima always have said that BH has a funny walk. He walks like Patty. Strange coincidence, eh?

 

[LAL]

I don't know where the Gifford Pinchot National Forest is, but I do know one thing -- it's "not Bigfoot country." I've learned that much from 4 Bigfoot threads here... anyplace there are lots of people wandering around and not seeing Bigfoot is "not Bigfoot country." "Bigfoot country" might start a quarter mile away, but all those people are in the wrong place to see Bigfoot.

See, this place is educational.

Are you serious? The Gifford Pinchot is larger than the state of Delaware.

It looks like this:

And this:

And this (where it hasn't been clear-cut):

Just the Facts

Size:1,312,000 acres

Height of Mount Adams: 12,276 feet

Miles of Trail: 1,100

Features: The 2.5-mile Blue Lake Trail meanders past an awesome 250-foot rock wall of columnar basalt. Explore Ape Cave; at 12,810 feet it is the longest lava tube in the continental United States. Cross-country skiers must try the seven-mile Natural Bridges Loop, which traverses several natural bridges and leads to a collapsed lava tube. We urge mountain bikers to pedal like hell if they encounter Bigfoot on the Sasquatch Trail.

http://away.com/tripideas/gifford-pinchot-national-forest-hike-walk-climb-300909.html

Mt. St. Helens is completely contained in within it with plenty of room to spare.

It's in Skamania County, Washington, home of Ape Canyon and Skookum Meadow, and you don't know where it is?

I used to live near it; all that human activity gets lost in its vastness.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[LAL]

The still missing clip is the one from KATU.com that shows Bob Heironimus walking in street clothes. He walks just like Patty.

I've seen it. He walks "just like Patty" in street clothes, but not in a Morris costume?

Oh.

 

[William Parcher]

Thanks again Lu for posting photos that show the beautiful expanses of American wilderness. We already get the hint from you that Bigfoot will never be found in the vastness... unless it is somehow found. Nice prelude to an ongoing Bigfoot myth that is posed as being a question or a mystery. Living Mastodons could be hidden in those vistas too. Betcha can't prove that they are extinct.

 

[LAL]

Roger Patterson's brother-in-law DeAtley had money to burn and invested in Roger.

$20 here and there, he paid for the trip to California and the publication of the book and bitched that Roger never held a steady job. He did it for his sister's sake, not Roger's. He did not have "money to burn".

You already know that. Vilma Radford loaned money to Roger, which he subsequently defaulted on.

So? That doesn't make him a master hoaxer. Are you going to bring up that he failed to return the camera on time too?

You already know that. Lu, are you some kind of slimey weasel for saying these things?

Are you calling me something I can report you for?

Patterson was a gifted craftsman and artist. You already know this. Are you being a weasel?

Nonsense. Look at his work. My kids were better when they were twelve. So was I.

That recreation sucks eggs and you already know this.

Kal Korff and Greg Long stood behind it. They were going to show the world. It was on a National Geographic special.

It's the only one I know of that actually shows Bob in a Morris suit. Remember Morris? He claimed he, not Roger, made the suit and Heironimus claimed the guy from Planet of the Apes did (and also that Roger did).

When he was videotaped walking for KATU.com, he walked exactly like Patty.

No, he didn't. There's no "swimming motion", no "mountain gait".

Folks in Yakima always have said that BH has a funny walk.

So did Grougho Marx when he wanted to.

Are folks in Yakima experts in biomechanics? Did they know Patty walks like an Australopithecine?

He walks like Patty. Strange coincidence, eh?

But not in the suit.

Stranger yet is that he didn't know where the film site was, and that he and Morris described different suits. But Korff, Kocis and Long bought it all. And so do you.

 

[LAL]

Rather than me reading 136 pages of aquabbling, can someone summarize the alleged proof that a healthy breeding population of
these animals exists?

Proof? Nothing is proven in science.

Evidence pointing to the existance of an unidentified NA hominid primate:

Thousands of eyewitness sightings

Footprints

Handprints

Hair

Scat

The Skookum body cast

The cast of a print of a female rear end

The Patterson-Gimlin film

Various other stills and videos

Recordings of calls

Evidence of feeding

Native tradition, especially among the coastal tribes of the Pacific Northwest (including Alaska)

Have I missed anything?

Disputed, but not disproven.

 

[LAL]

Well, my posts are now going up instantly on Cryptomondo.

I'm sorry now I bothered Loren with an e-mail, Kitakaze. Here, you're one of the gang, there you may be considered a - dare I say it? Troll.

I know how polite and respectful you can be, so I didn't really think you might have been using a tone they don't like.

Read Mike Dennett's posts on BFF sometime. They're an example of how someone can be sceptical and still post like a gentleman.

Of course, he hasn't posted very often................

 

[tube]

I'm stepping out for a moment but I propose compiling a list of sorts of people that should be aware of bigfoot but make no such claim.

ETA: First suggestion for list entry:

Gifford Pinchot National Forest staff.

Second: Survivorman

That's kind of funny... Some years ago, my girlfriend and I camped out overnight in Ape Canyon. There is a bona fide trail all the way from the parking lot to the big cliffs. When we came back the next day, two park rangers were in the parking lot checking cars for parking permits. We started talking to the female ranger about the name "Ape Canyon". We were very surprised to find that she didn't know where the name came from! We got to fill her in on the whole 1924 "classic" story. We experienced no ridiclue...

By the way, though I'm not much of a wilderness guy, I've found animal bones in the wilderness on THREE occasions. One of them was in Ape Canyon! I'm fairly sure it was the rib bone of an elk or deer. This is not surprising, considering that there is something of an elk overpopulation problem there:

http://www.thedaily.washington.edu/...nToElkProblemAtMtStHelensNeedsReconsideration

Hmmm... Elk overpopulation problem in Skookum meadows..... Naw, it couldn't be......

 

[Hitch]

Miles of Trail: 1,100

Features: The 2.5-mile Blue Lake Trail meanders past an awesome 250-foot rock wall of columnar basalt. Explore Ape Cave; at 12,810 feet it is the longest lava tube in the continental United States. Cross-country skiers must try the seven-mile Natural Bridges Loop, which traverses several natural bridges and leads to a collapsed lava tube. We urge mountain bikers to pedal like hell if they encounter Bigfoot on the Sasquatch Trail.

Does this happen often?

 

[RayG]

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/faqs/

Lotta folks wandering around GPNF on business.

Lotta visitors too. Gets around 1,800,000 each fiscal year.

RayG

 

[Correa Neto]

...snip...I ran across this while searching today and thought Correa might like to see it (I still have him on Ignore). It mentions the Daegling paper on tooth wear we talked about.

"Of course the relative quantities of phytoliths do not directly address dietary composition, since different plants have different phytolith abundances. Likewise, one might speculate that the phytoliths on fossil teeth represent foods eaten near the time of death -- a "last meal" effect. This might explain the apparent evidence for one kind of fruit in the Gigantopithecus data: the individual died at the time that fruit was in season. In any event, Ciochon and colleagues (1990) conclude it likely that Gigantopithecus had a very broad diet, that nonetheless included bamboo as a staple. In support of this, they cite an examination of tooth wear by Daegling and Grine (1989 in abstract; later published in 1994 in SAJS) that found Gigantopithecus microwear to be similar to chimpanzees. Chimpanzees themselves eat a majority of fruit, with smaller proportions of leaves, insects, and meat."

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/apes/gigantopithecus/

<emphasis mine>

Quote mining will not turn Giantopithecus in to bigfoot. Here's a short review on why:

1- Bigfeet are supposed to be omnivorous, opportunistic -there are even reports (some of the hilarious) of bigfeet hunting. Avaliable evidence (partially exposed at LAL's link) indicates Gigantopithecus "broad diet" had bamboo as the "main dish", with fruits (possibly durian or jackfruit) and dicotyledons as entrance, dessert or snack. That's herbivorous, not omnivorous.

2- Gigantopithecus were restricted to the Southeast Asia, an area with very different climate than most "bigfoot country" has. Not to mention that while expanding their habitats, bigfeet should have crossed thousands of km of terrains with climate and vegetation different very different from their homes... Just check this map (http://www.theodora.com/maps/new9/world_climate_map-large.jpg) to see the climate zones.

3- There are absolutely no evidences that Gigantopithecus ever expanded their habitats beyond Southeast Asia. This is the single most devastating argument against the "bigfeet are are Gigantopithecus" claim.

4- Avaliable reconstructions of Gigantopithecus show a critter that is very different from Patty. Specially if one considers the australopithecine-like IM...

Sorry, Gigantopithecus provide no validation to the "bigfeet are real" claim, no matter how many times bigfoot proponents try to pull this on. Move on, folks, nothing to see here...

Please feel free to keep ignoring the obvious flaws in the pro-bigfoot evidences and reasoning presented so far...

 

[RayG]

Not the reputable ones. You're refering to Freeman, I assume. Who else?

.
Anything associated with Paul Freeman, David Shealy, Ivan Marx, Cliff Crook, Matt Moneymaker, Mary Green, or Tom Biscardi should be considered tainted.

Some bigfoot hoaxes:

The Johor Hominid
The snow walker video
Mary Green's garlic stealing, blanket-toting, t-shirt wearing habituated bigfoot
The Jacko newspaper report from 1884
The Cliff Crook photo
Ivan Marx film hoax

Bobbie Short has a collection of bigfoot hoaxes, rumors and exposures on her website here.

Those who want it to be a man in a suit have to hold Roger responsible for it. When it's pointed out he didn't have the money, it becomes a lousy, falling apart suit. When it's pointed out he plain wasn't smart enough he becomes a homespun genius. He was in a no-win situation.

.
And when it's pointed out no bigfoot body has ever been produced, those who support the PGF can only nod in agreement.

RayG

 

[CLD]

Proof? Nothing is proven in science.

Evidence pointing to the existance of an unidentified NA hominid primate:

Thousands of eyewitness sightings

Footprints

Handprints

Hair

Scat

The Skookum body cast

The cast of a print of a female rear end

The Patterson-Gimlin film

Various other stills and videos

Recordings of calls

Evidence of feeding

Native tradition, especially among the coastal tribes of the Pacific Northwest (including Alaska)

Have I missed anything?

Disputed, but not disproven.

• Presenting a minority view as if it is a legitimate scientific debate [i.e. a 50/50 split within mainstream science] is one of the hallmarks of pseudoscience. (-25 points)
• Evidence (feeding, calls, prints, hair, scat, etc.) which has no baseline (existing specimen) to be compared or measured against, yet is purported as definitive proof. More pseudoscience. (-25 points)
• Over-reliance on anecdotal evidence and heresay. Major pseudoscience. (-25 points)
• Overly-credulous interpretation of ambiguous film, video and still images. Typical pseudoscience. (-20 points)
• Citing traditional beliefs as supporting proof. Pseudoscience. (-5 points)

Sorry but your evidence flunked the test.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Proof? Nothing is proven in science.

.................

 

[LAL]

Sorry but your evidence flunked the test.

I said, it was evidence pointing to the existance of an unidentified NAhominid primate.

These are living animals in terrain that's pretty inaccessible, largely nocturnal and smarter than your average bear, not specimens in a Petri dish, or rats in a cage.

Just how do you replicate fleeting encounters and trackways or get one to obligingly sit in the mud? I can't even get my cat to walk anywhere other that where he's heading, let alone do it more than once.

Science wants a body.......and then they'll want a couple more to confirm.

 

[LAL]

Thanks again Lu for posting photos that show the beautiful expanses of American wilderness. We already get the hint from you that Bigfoot will never be found in the vastness... unless it is somehow found. Nice prelude to an ongoing Bigfoot myth that is posed as being a question or a mystery. Living Mastodons could be hidden in those vistas too. Betcha can't prove that they are extinct.

You're welcome.

Some 400 people a year aren't reporting mastodons.

I think there will be confirmation. It's a matter of time and enough Goodall types getting out there in the poison oak with their game cams, call blasters and fruit bait.

Did you know the Great Smoky Mountains National Park gets 9 million visitors a year, but there's only one road across it? I don't know where they all are, but they certainly don't seem to be going through Cherokee.

Last I heard, Skamania County only had one car to patrol the north end of the county. There was a lot of concern about tourists getting lost in the new national monument, since the county didn't have funds for another unit. You should have seen the roads. Tourists tend to stay at the campgrounds, or take short hikes, or go fishing or berry picking or mushrooming, but they're not crawling all over the woodlands. And they're seldom out at night.

Now, you really think these are the same? Bob in a suit on the left and Bob in a suit on the right?

 

[CLD]

I said, it was evidence pointing to the existance of an unidentified NAhominid primate.

Yes, I also have evidence pointing to the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

These are living animals in terrain that's pretty inaccessible, largely nocturnal and smarter than your average bear, not specimens in a Petri dish, or rats in a cage.

Yes, but we have always managed to get loads of specimens of smart, nocturnal animals living in inaccessible terrain before. Why not this Bigfoot? Why is he so special as to be unobservable?

Just how do you replicate fleeting encounters and trackways or get one to obligingly sit in the mud? I can't even get my cat to walk anywhere other that where he's heading, let alone do it more than once.

If they are real animals, you get real bodies. It really is that simple.

Science wants a body.......and then they'll want a couple more to confirm.

You'd be satisfied with no bodies? Oh wait. You are.

 

[LTC8K6]

The folks with the permits are probably not staying on the trails, either.

Plenty of folks available to fake tracks.