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Dawkins vs. O'Reilly. Video + Analysis

On the contrary, I'm pointing out that very idea of "not yet" and actively investigationg physics is "faith" that the answer lies there....
That's not faith. It's assumption based on previous experience. Our previous experience dictates that the scientific method is the best way to answer our questions. It's worked millions upon millions of times. Thus, assuming it will work again is not faith, because there is lots of evidence and experience backing it up.

Do you think that religion isn't also dynamic? Yes, they have their holy books, traditions, rituals and wot-not but religion is supposed to be about growing spiritually and subsequently attaining Enlightenment or some kind of mystical union.
That's your own definition. Religions are based in holy books, and as far as I know, the Bible, Koran etc. aren't supposed to change.

To the Buddhist, for example, this is the Eightfold Noble Path

Wisdom
1. Right view
2. Right intention

Ethical conduct
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood

Mental discipline
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

Again, the "faith" that the ultimate answer to the origin (and purpose?) of objective reality lies in illumination.

_
HypnoPsi
It would mess up the conversation if I were to answer any point that is based on a wrong assumption. The "faith" assumption you make is wrong, so that must be straightened out before we continue.
 
That's not faith. It's assumption based on previous experience. Our previous experience dictates that the scientific method is the best way to answer our questions. It's worked millions upon millions of times. Thus, assuming it will work again is not faith, because there is lots of evidence and experience backing it up.

That's your own definition. Religions are based in holy books, and as far as I know, the Bible, Koran etc. aren't supposed to change.

It would mess up the conversation if I were to answer any point that is based on a wrong assumption. The "faith" assumption you make is wrong, so that must be straightened out before we continue.

It's occurred to me that some people confound faith in a deity with trust in mere mortals.

Please, if you are thinking along that trajectory, stop!

"Mere mortals" can be held to account. Deities can't.

M.
 
It's occurred to me that some people confound faith in a deity with trust in mere mortals.

Please, if you are thinking along that trajectory, stop!

"Mere mortals" can be held to account. Deities can't.

M.
What?

Perhaps you should address this to HypnoPsi? He brought up "faith" in those terms...
 
Rubbish.

There are several points wrong with your argument.


I suggest you try to undestand my argument before attacking a straw man as you do in this post.


1) Atheists do not postulate a "magical substance behind the whole shebang". Rather they take the approach of "lets see what science discovers". Believing in magic is antithetical to atheistic philosophy.

2) "Materialistic" atheism? What is "materialistic" atheism? What other types of atheism are there?


Your second question needs to be answered first. One type of atheism that is not materialistic is Buddhism, particularly of the Japanese Zen variety; though other sects would be included as well.

That is part of the reason why I have always used the term "materialistic atheists" as opposed to just "atheists". The second reason is that "materialism" is also an ontology as well as an epistemology, meaning it is not just concerned with the mechanics of the objective universe.

http://philosophy.uwaterloo.ca/MindDict/materialism.html

Materialism is a faith based metaphysic about the origin of the objective universe that limits itself to physicalism, rejecting God/s. My only point has been that this is no more testable than the God hypothesis and that a materialistic origin theory is every bit as faith-based as a consciousness origin theory.

Are you embarrased about this or something?

3) Postulating that a god-concept of some sort is responsible for the creation of the universe simply moves the question back a notch.


So what? The question is after all about how objective reality got there in the first place and not really about the mechanics of the universe.


What is responsible for the creation of this god-concept? Where did it come from? If you then argue that "it always existed" you're deliberately avoiding the question, rather than offering a satisfactory answer.


I don't have a satisfactory answer from either side myself!

All I know is that we accept the existence of both consciousness and matter/energy and the Universe exists. Nobody can prove anything either way.

_
HypnoPsi
 
The problem is, Hypno, that those you call "material atheists" here are mostly just atheists.


When have I called anyone a "materialistic atheist"? I let people define themselves. What I have done is point out the difference between "atheism" and "materialistic atheism" and made it clear that "materialism" is also a metaphysical ontology as well as an epistemology.

(You might also want to have a word with "The Great Hairy One" who wrote ""Materialistic" atheism? What is "materialistic" atheism? What other types of atheism are there?")

Many Buddhists - rightly - consider themselves atheists. Again, I'm only saying that "materialism" and/or "materialistic atheism" is a faith based metaphysic.

I am just an atheist.


And that's your choice. But let's place that in the context of science and someone who says: "I don't know where the Universe came from, I'm just an atheist because I don't see any evidence for God/s" If such an individual cannot even say where they would investigate they're just a layman and not really doing science. You have to add "Well, I think we should look at...." and say why.

I can believe in the supernatural and "psi" stuff if there was reliable evidence of it. There isn't. Do you think you can take down your "material atheist" strawmen down now?


And I could believe in machine consciousness if there was reliable evidence for that. There isn't. In fact, there's nothing. Absolutely squat. Not even a single experiment. Dennett's theory about thermostats having beliefs (his functionalism approach) has no way to be tested. There's no way to test any materialistic ideas about consciousness and nobody has ever published a positive result demonstrating that consciousness is indistinct from matter.

The same cannot be said about parapsychologists no matter what you might think of them.

_
HypnoPsi
 
Hypno seems to be rather hammy with his posts and sometimes interestingly ianic. He obviously suffers from strawman addiction.


Since this post contains nothing of substance whatsoever and is only intended as an insult it would appear you've given up the debate.

_
HypnoPsi
 
That's not faith.


Prove it. Say you don't have faith or believe that the answer to the origin of objective reality lies in physics?


It's assumption based on previous experience. Our previous experience dictates that the scientific method is the best way to answer our questions.


What previous experience is there for the spontaneous self-generation of an Universe or a multiverse?


Quote:
Do you think that religion isn't also dynamic? Yes, they have their holy books, traditions, rituals and wot-not but religion is supposed to be about growing spiritually and subsequently attaining Enlightenment or some kind of mystical union.
That's your own definition. Religions are based in holy books, and as far as I know, the Bible, Koran etc. aren't supposed to change.


But people are.


The "faith" assumption you make is wrong, so that must be straightened out before we continue.

Which is it them? Do you "know" that physicalism/materialism explains the existence of objective reality?

_
HypnoPsi
 
Please note that most Christians (at least in Europe) DO NOT any longer live in the middle ages, and that since Thomas of Acquitaine in the 1300-hundreds rediscovered Aristotle, the sense (reason & logic) has sort of been smacked right back in the Christian religion. Somehow the whole Protestant thing in Europe helpe, too, I think...

I know that Dawkins is speaking and writing in an American context, and I really don't think, from what I've heard and read about him, that he really understand the way, religion are seen as a private thing in most of Europe.
(simply because religion in the USA is a matter or public concern and debate etc).

There also seems to be no distinction made, as far I can tell, between the fundamentalist people in all organized religion, and the more liberal people in say Judaism, Christianity or the Moslem faith. (and for some reason in his book, 'the end of faith' her treats Islam as it was some sort of ideology which all people practises Islam the same way, which they don't). It just seems an attack on all religion, because religion is 'the root of evil' as it was people with a religious agenda that flew into the WTC towers :( :cry:1 (not a recommendation...)

This simply overlooks the fact that most of the Moslem world (if we can talk of one Moslem world, but let's say this for argument's sake) has been aghast over its status in the world of today, or that the Moslem world seem 'mad' that its economic importance in the world has been declining for years. I don't think you can say that there's only explanation as to why people, muslems, or others, do they thing to do. The explanation as to why people flew into the WTC towers :( :cry1: a multi-facetted one, imo. It can't just be explained away with saying 'they did because their religion told to do it.' I'm sorry, but this is way to much of a superficial explanation, to me.

Also, I don't think that any Christian in Europe will argue with scientific facts about how the world was made (created?) or came to be. (well, maybe a small percentage would, but they are usually looked at, at least by the Danes, as some cuckoos and crackpots...). The thing is is this: Yes, science can explain a a lot, but science really can't help us decide whether or not abortion ought to be legal or not or whether or not people should get to choose their children's gender or not or whether or not people should be given the opportunity to implant a Cochlear Impleant (CI) in the ears of deaf children or not. Science can only, as I see it, presents us with the way to do this. And then it is up to us to choose, if we will make abortion il-legal or not, if we would like to give parents the ability to get their deaf children a CI-implant etc.

And that's where (organized) religion can play a role, I think, in co-operation, of course with the voice of atheists, agnosticists and other people who has opinions on the issues or subjects being discussed. I'm including atheists etc. because I happen to agree with the argument that just because someone is a Priest or a (clergy) Minister doesn't mean that he or she is a moral or ethichal person that say an atheist is. Personally, I have known atheist who are more ethichal than any Minister or Priest, I know and who seem to have grasped more of the Christian message about love (agape) towards others than some religious people of all faiths & beliefs.


And the not saying 'hallo' to a fellow human being is just rude and very not polite, imo. Dawkins needs to re-read his book 'the selfish gene' again, I think. Then he would learn (again) that the only way, according to him, that have made humanity survive, is that we, as a species, have always depended on the kindess of strangers. To see ourselves as members of the human race (or species) and not establish borders between us, whether we are christians, muslems, or atheists.
 
aries said:
Yes, science can explain a a lot, but science really can't help us decide whether or not abortion ought to be legal or not or whether or not people should get to choose their children's gender or not or whether or not people should be given the opportunity to implant a Cochlear Impleant (CI) in the ears of deaf children or not.

Neither can an invisible friend that doesn't exist.
 
The explanation as to why people flew into the WTC towers :( :cry1: a multi-facetted one, imo. It can't just be explained away with saying 'they did because their religion told to do it.' I'm sorry, but this is way to much of a superficial explanation, to me.

Then offer a better one. The fact is, people will willingly die when they believe there is some greater glory waiting for them on the other side. Tell those same people that there is nothing after death. They will simply cease to exist and no one will remember them except as the psycho that flew a plane into a building. Tell them that their families will live in shame for the rest of their lives.

Why wasn't there an outcry from the Muslim world when 9/11 happened? Why wasn't there an outcry from the Catholic world when the IRA was murdering people in the name of god? Why wasn't their an outcry from the Catholic and Protestant worlds when it came to light what atrocities they had visited upon the children of various native groups around the world? Why isn't there an outcry from jews when jews kill people of other religions? Why is it seen by so many religious people to be perfectly okay for anyhone to kill a non-believer.

Why isn't their an outcry from people when it is their religion doing the damage but a great outcry when it is their religion that is being damaged? Why does it make a difference in the minds of religious people who is being murdered? Why aren't they appalled that ANYONE is being killed?

Why is it okay for religions to continue the cycle of horror by continuing to indoctrinate children with those sick beliefs?

Why doesn't a single leader of these religions tell their followers that they will not go to heaven if they kill ANYONE in the name of god?

The thing is is this: Yes, science can explain a a lot, but science really can't help us decide whether or not abortion ought to be legal or not or whether or not people should get to choose their children's gender or not or whether or not people should be given the opportunity to implant a Cochlear Impleant (CI) in the ears of deaf children or not. Science can only, as I see it, presents us with the way to do this. And then it is up to us to choose, if we will make abortion il-legal or not, if we would like to give parents the ability to get their deaf children a CI-implant etc.

This is complete hogwash. Science can help with these decisions by educating people. Good decisions on hard issues like abortion and medical procedures for children can only be made when people are given all the information. It is not enough to say that it is wrong. It is not enough to allow one point of view to be the only accepted one. Science gives out the information and allows people to make their own decisions. Religion gives out information if it suits its position, it invents false evidence to further support its position, it lies about anything that does not support its position and it allows lay people to speak as if they are experts on the subject. To top it all off, religion insists that EVERYONE must adhere to its accepted view.

In fact, it is religion that cannot help with any of these hard decisions..

And that's where (organized) religion can play a role, I think, in co-operation, of course with the voice of atheists, agnosticists and other people who has opinions on the issues or subjects being discussed.

We tried that. Religious leaders did not like the fact that they were no longer in control.

I'm including atheists etc. because I happen to agree with the argument that just because someone is a Priest or a (clergy) Minister doesn't mean that he or she is a moral or ethichal person that say an atheist is. Personally, I have known atheist who are more ethichal than any Minister or Priest, I know and who seem to have grasped more of the Christian message about love (agape) towards others than some religious people of all faiths & beliefs.

Well, that's mighty magnanimous of you! You are going to allow atheists and agnostics into your little club!

Do you think we care what religious people think about us? We have seen what they do and we are not impressed. We do not live our lives to please some irrelevent god and we do not live it to please the follower of some irrelevent god. We live our life as best we can based on what is right.

The fact is, we are not interested in joining you. We will join any cause that is right and if it happens to be supported by religion, so be it. However, when religion, any religion, strays from what is right, we will be on the other side.

We cannot be friends with religion simply because religion doesn't want to be friends, It wants to control everything everyone does and that we can't abide.

And the not saying 'hallo' to a fellow human being is just rude and very not polite, imo. Dawkins needs to re-read his book 'the selfish gene' again, I think. Then he would learn (again) that the only way, according to him, that have made humanity survive, is that we, as a species, have always depended on the kindess of strangers. To see ourselves as members of the human race (or species) and not establish borders between us, whether we are christians, muslems, or atheists.

You are preaching to the choir. Dawkins isn't the one that needs to hear it. This is the message he has been putting out for a very long time. You should maybe take this message out to religious leaders. Get an audience with the pope, a mullah, Elisabeth II, etc. and try convert them to Dawkins' ideas.

I think it is ironic that you blame Dawkins for seeing the borders between christianity, muslims and atheists. Religion is the divider not Dawkins. Dawkins is simply the messenger.
 
Please note that most Christians (at least in Europe) DO NOT any longer live in the middle ages, and that since Thomas of Acquitaine in the 1300-hundreds rediscovered Aristotle, the sense (reason & logic) has sort of been smacked right back in the Christian religion. Somehow the whole Protestant thing in Europe helpe, too, I think...

I know that Dawkins is speaking and writing in an American context, and I really don't think, from what I've heard and read about him, that he really understand the way, religion are seen as a private thing in most of Europe.
(simply because religion in the USA is a matter or public concern and debate etc).

There also seems to be no distinction made, as far I can tell, between the fundamentalist people in all organized religion, and the more liberal people in say Judaism, Christianity or the Moslem faith. (and for some reason in his book, 'the end of faith' her treats Islam as it was some sort of ideology which all people practises Islam the same way, which they don't). It just seems an attack on all religion, because religion is 'the root of evil' as it was people with a religious agenda that flew into the WTC towers :( :cry:1 (not a recommendation...)

This simply overlooks the fact that most of the Moslem world (if we can talk of one Moslem world, but let's say this for argument's sake) has been aghast over its status in the world of today, or that the Moslem world seem 'mad' that its economic importance in the world has been declining for years. I don't think you can say that there's only explanation as to why people, muslems, or others, do they thing to do. The explanation as to why people flew into the WTC towers :( :cry1: a multi-facetted one, imo. It can't just be explained away with saying 'they did because their religion told to do it.' I'm sorry, but this is way to much of a superficial explanation, to me.

Also, I don't think that any Christian in Europe will argue with scientific facts about how the world was made (created?) or came to be. (well, maybe a small percentage would, but they are usually looked at, at least by the Danes, as some cuckoos and crackpots...). The thing is is this: Yes, science can explain a a lot, but science really can't help us decide whether or not abortion ought to be legal or not or whether or not people should get to choose their children's gender or not or whether or not people should be given the opportunity to implant a Cochlear Impleant (CI) in the ears of deaf children or not. Science can only, as I see it, presents us with the way to do this. And then it is up to us to choose, if we will make abortion il-legal or not, if we would like to give parents the ability to get their deaf children a CI-implant etc.

And that's where (organized) religion can play a role, I think, in co-operation, of course with the voice of atheists, agnosticists and other people who has opinions on the issues or subjects being discussed. I'm including atheists etc. because I happen to agree with the argument that just because someone is a Priest or a (clergy) Minister doesn't mean that he or she is a moral or ethichal person that say an atheist is. Personally, I have known atheist who are more ethichal than any Minister or Priest, I know and who seem to have grasped more of the Christian message about love (agape) towards others than some religious people of all faiths & beliefs.


And the not saying 'hallo' to a fellow human being is just rude and very not polite, imo. Dawkins needs to re-read his book 'the selfish gene' again, I think. Then he would learn (again) that the only way, according to him, that have made humanity survive, is that we, as a species, have always depended on the kindess of strangers. To see ourselves as members of the human race (or species) and not establish borders between us, whether we are christians, muslems, or atheists.

You speak as if religion (belief in a deity) is something, when it isn't anything. If it can be said to exist then it exists only in the febrile minds of believers.

M.
 
Qayak said:
Then offer a better one. The fact is, people will willingly die when they believe there is some greater glory waiting for them on the other side. Tell those same people that there is nothing after death. They will simply cease to exist and no one will remember them except as the psycho that flew a plane into a building. Tell them that their families will live in shame for the rest of their lives.

Why wasn't there an outcry from the Muslim world when 9/11 happened? Why wasn't there an outcry from the Catholic world when the IRA was murdering people in the name of god? Why wasn't their an outcry from the Catholic and Protestant worlds when it came to light what atrocities they had visited upon the children of various native groups around the world? Why isn't there an outcry from jews when jews kill people of other religions? Why is it seen by so many religious people to be perfectly okay for anyhone to kill a non-believer.

Why isn't their an outcry from people when it is their religion doing the damage but a great outcry when it is their religion that is being damaged? Why does it make a difference in the minds of religious people who is being murdered? Why aren't they appalled that ANYONE is being killed?

Why is it okay for religions to continue the cycle of horror by continuing to indoctrinate children with those sick beliefs?

Why doesn't a single leader of these religions tell their followers that they will not go to heaven if they kill ANYONE in the name of god?

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/9_11statements.htm

For just an example.

There was Muslim outcry. It just went unheeded in the name of attacking religion (since they're all Muslim, so they must be evil, right? All ~1.5 billion of them?)

AFAIK, Dawkins does not mean to portray all Muslims as the same as the terrorists. But the message is still a strong one: A lot of the problems in the Middle East are caused by an extreme amount of religious conflict.
 
Quite literally, religion makes me want to puke. It seems such an imbecilic idea, held by imbeciles, it's a wonder humankind has progressed beyond the dark ages.

And why does it persist? Because it gives the hard-of-thinking a beguiling fantasy of some sort of afterlife. That's it. That's the trump card.

When I see the Prime Minister of our country on TV encouraging people to get on their knees and pray for rain, instead of taking the issue of climate change seriously, I feel I am living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

M.
 
Quite literally, religion makes me want to puke. It seems such an imbecilic idea, held by imbeciles, it's a wonder humankind has progressed beyond the dark ages.

And why does it persist? Because it gives the hard-of-thinking a beguiling fantasy of some sort of afterlife. That's it. That's the trump card.

When I see the Prime Minister of our country on TV encouraging people to get on their knees and pray for rain, instead of taking the issue of climate change seriously, I feel I am living in cloud-cuckoo-land.

M.

Do you really believe that all adherers of any particular religion are truly "stupid" and "imbeciles", and that they all are willing to pray for rain instead of taking any scientific data seriously? Do you really feel yourself to be so incredibly superior to so many people?
 
Do you really believe that all adherers of any particular religion are truly "stupid" and "imbeciles", and that they all are willing to pray for rain instead of taking any scientific data seriously? Do you really feel yourself to be so incredibly superior to so many people?

Yes, and no.

M.
 
Yes, and no.

Hm.

I'm glad that Dawkins has more class than that, at the least. There are videos of him giving a reasoned debate, showing him respecting the opposition instead of assuming them all to be utter morons.
 
Hm.

I'm glad that Dawkins has more class than that, at the least. There are videos of him giving a reasoned debate, showing him respecting the opposition instead of assuming them all to be utter morons.

Richard Dawkins has respect for the person, but not the ideas. I have respect for neither.

M.
 
I suggest you try to undestand my argument before attacking a straw man as you do in this post.


Your argument is pure philosophical psychobabble. You're trying to state that this purely fictional construct "materialistic atheism" is a new form of religion. There is no such thing.

Materialism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

This has nothing to with Atheism, which is defined here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

They are two completely different philosophical stances which are not linked, and have nothing to do with each other.

Cheers,
TGHO
 
You're trying to state that this purely fictional construct "materialistic atheism" is a new form of religion.


I have never said that "materialistic atheism" is a new form of religion. It isn't. I have said that it is a faith-based metaphysic - which it is.


There is no such thing.


For "materialistic atheism" (with the quotes) Google returns 2,230 pages

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...GIH_en-GBGB215GB216&q="materialistic+atheism"

For "atheistic materialism" (again, with the quotes) Google returns 16,700 pages

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour...GIH_en-GBGB215GB216&q="atheistic+materialism"

_
HypnoPsi
 

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