Exorcise ,exorcism, voodoo,

[freudianlip]

Is exorcism a clear example of how mind over matter? Where a person is suffering from a mental illness and due to their cultural values believes that only an exorcist is the cure.If so why do so many people cite witnessed apparent phenomena such as things that go bump in the night? What about the animal sounds uttered does anyone have any genuine recordings of these? Or do they exist at all are we talking about a type of mass hysteria with sound and visual effects.??

 

[thisninjascrazy]

Do you have any cases in mind of anybody being 'cured' of a mental illness by an exorcism? I'm no Psychiatrist, but as far as I can understand, many conditions classified as mental illnesses are things that can be 'treated' but not 'cured'. In other words, it's something you have to learn to live with.

As far as 'things that go bump in the night', who knows? If I had a dollar for every time I've mistaken the rustle of a hedgehog in my garden for a burglar's footstep, I'd be rich.

 

[freudianlip]

"Drug-addicted, suicidal, abused young people may give all the earmarks of abstracted torment, but their problems are other than metaphysical. (Teenagers who need rehab are not helped by the recitation of an old prayer, even with candles, crosses, and high drama, and the true solution is delayed. They are, however, often pleased by the attention, and the behavior that seems to bring it is even encouraged.)" Mason Winfield also says"If you are even considering the possibility that demons are haunting your house or taking over a family member, your first step ought to be to seek counseling. Still, some of you who read this will come to suspect that you need the services of a professional – an “exorcist,” hopefully one trained by one of the orthodox faiths."
"In September 2005, Pope Benedict XVI spoke at the convention of Italian exorcists and encouraged them to "carry on their important work." (domainhelp.search.com/reference/Exorcism )
Affirmation by the Roman Catholic body that exorcism is recognised by them and relevant (to them)



"After observing voluntary possession in mediums, shamans and voodoo ceremonies, many researchers generally agree that it usually occurs while the individual is in some type of trance. The next thing that occurs during possession is the manifestation of the spirit in the body. The facial expression, change in voice, body language, and the personality change can identify the spirit. "

"In these ceremonies spirits identify themselves, manifest, and they eventually leave. Melville J. Herskovits, an American anthropologist, in his book Life in a Haitian Valley (© 1971 Doubleday) documents this. Herskovits states: “Possession occurs according to well defined rules and under specific circumstances” as quoted in Ms. Goodman’s book."By Dr. Lee Warren

However although he states "many researchers" I am having some difficulty with locating these mysterious entities called 'many researchers'and or any case studies which are contemporary or indeed even alive (but I will earnestly pursue this line of thought): Unfortunate victims of exorcism as follows;
Anneliese Michel (September 21, 1952 - June 30, 1976) was a German college student who died during an exorcism. Her parents and the two Bavarian priests who carried out the exorcism were later convicted. The movies The Exorcism of Emily Rose and Requiem were based on her story.
Kyung-A Ha was beaten to death in 1995 in San Francisco, California by members of the Jesus-Amen Ministries.
Kyung Jae Chung died in 1996 in Glendale, California from blunt-force trauma inflicted by her husband (a reverend) and members of the Glendale Korean Methodist Church.
In Ontario, 1996, two-year-old Kira Canhoto was killed by her grandmother Ana Maria Canhoto, who force-fed water to the child in order to "ward off evil spirits". (Vancouver Province, 1/11/96)
Charity Miranda was suffocated with a plastic bag in 1998 in Sayville, New York by her mother and sister, during a Cuban Voodoo exorcism ritual.
Korean woman Joanna Lee died in early December 2001, during a violent and prolonged exorcism performed in Auckland, New Zealand by Korean church minister Luke Lee. Her decomposing body was prayed over for several days before authorities were notified. During his subsequent trial, Luke Lee claimed that Joanna Lee would rise from the dead in a few days. Lee was imprisoned but has appealed the conviction.
Terrance Cottrell Jr., an eight-year-old autistic child, died of asphyxiation in 2003 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin during an exorcism carried out by members of the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith, in an attempt to expel the boy's demons. The coroner ruled that the boy died "due to external chest compression" as the part-time pastor lay on top of him. On July 10, 2004, the pastor was convicted of child abuse.
In 2005, a 23 year old Romanian nun called Maricica Irina Cornici, who had previously received treatment for schizophrenia, heard voices telling her she was sinful. She was subjected to exorcism allegedly conducted by 29-year-old Daniel Petre Corogeanu, an Orthodox monk of the Holy Trinity convent in the nearby village of Tanacu. Cornici was bound to a cross, gagged with a towel, and left in a cold, dark room without food or water for three days.[1][2] Initially it was believed that she died of suffocation and dehydration during the exorcism. However an autopsy carried out on the exhumed body showed that she died of an adrenaline overdose mistakenly administered by a medic.[3]

 

[JonWhite]

Is exorcism a clear example of how mind over matter? Where a person is suffering from a mental illness and due to their cultural values believes that only an exorcist is the cure.If so why do so many people cite witnessed apparent phenomena such as things that go bump in the night? What about the animal sounds uttered does anyone have any genuine recordings of these? Or do they exist at all are we talking about a type of mass hysteria with sound and visual effects.??

Another good read on this is "The Devils of Loudon" by Aldous Huxly, which depicts the creation of mass-hysteria and subsequent exorcism in 17th-century France (there's an OTT Ken Russel film also).

For the things that go bump it's just what you are led to expect or want to believe. It's the old game of taking a few people to an empty house and telling a spooky tale of past murder and haunting - those inclined will attribute any bumps and bangs heard to other worldly phenomena. Take them to the same house but create a fun, positive atmosphere such as what a fantastic place for a party and far more natural explanations will be assumed.

 

[freudianlip]

For the things that go bump it's just what you are led to expect or want to believe. It's the old game of taking a few people to an empty house and telling a spooky tale of past murder and haunting - those inclined will attribute any bumps and bangs heard to other worldly phenomena. Take them to the same house but create a fun, positive atmosphere such as what a fantastic place for a party and far more natural explanations will be assumed.

What about other variables such as particular tones or frequencys' caused by electrical cabling or certain geophysical naturally occuring forces generating certan physiological responses in our sensory array. The resonance of certain lighting in industrial buildings can often, I believe give rise to 'corner of the eye' sightings.
P.s. In my house there are lots of things that go bump in the night as we have two teenage boys!

 

[freudianlip]

So no forum participant feels up to disseminating the alleged ' speaking in tongues, animal vocalizations, or recorded exorcism phenomena...'
That is either because ;
-Cannot be bothered.
-There are absolutely, positively none in known existence!
-or........... its too terrifying to share.....

 

[JonWhite]

....or perhaps there is simply no evidence for any such phenomena being genuine.

Anyone can make stupid noises/voices - such as J.Z. Knight doing her hilarious Ramtha impressions - and there are always those needy or guillible or with their own agenda (i.e. the Catholic church) willing to believe in and promote them.

 

[fuelair]

If mind over matter, what matter?

 

[lister]

In "Picking up the pieces" by Paul Britton (a psychologist), he describes one patient who believed he turned into a werewolf every day at 4pm

He describes how the man's posture and movements changed dramatically - more than just pretending, but he helped the man using ordinary psychology.

I think in the same book he also describes another case in which a perfectly ordinary women believes she is possessed. He also witnesses the manifestation of this possession, and describes how her voice lowered and became gutteral, and how it appeared that the muscles in her face changed her appearance! Again, standard psychology cured the woman completely.

This second story has a great impact on me when I read it, because although I had become skeptical, I was still wrestling with my Christian upbringing. Especially with the stories of demon possesion that my father had dealt with (he was a pentecostal minister). I was having a hard time rationalising such stories, but reading that account of how simple words had cured her, rather than invoking Christ's power over evil forces was a profound help to me.

 

[Cuddles]

So no forum participant feels up to disseminating the alleged ' speaking in tongues, animal vocalizations, or recorded exorcism phenomena...'
That is either because ;
-Cannot be bothered.
-There are absolutely, positively none in known existence!
-or........... its too terrifying to share.....

What do you want us to say? You ask if exocism is mind over matter and we have asked for evidence that anything happens at all. Until you provide some evidence there is nothing for us to be skeptical about. I should point out that the Catholic church is not acceptable as evidence.

 

[freudianlip]

What do you want us to say? You ask if exocism is mind over matter and we have asked for evidence that anything happens at all. Until you provide some evidence there is nothing for us to be skeptical about. I should point out that the Catholic church is not acceptable as evidence.

Fair enough, but the only alleged evidence I can locate is a list of 'exorcism' related deaths.Unfortunate victims of exorcism as follows;
Anneliese Michel (September 21, 1952 - June 30, 1976) was a German college student who died during an exorcism. Her parents and the two Bavarian priests who carried out the exorcism were later convicted. The movies The Exorcism of Emily Rose and Requiem were based on her story.
Kyung-A Ha was beaten to death in 1995 in San Francisco, California by members of the Jesus-Amen Ministries.
Kyung Jae Chung died in 1996 in Glendale, California from blunt-force trauma inflicted by her husband (a reverend) and members of the Glendale Korean Methodist Church.
In Ontario, 1996, two-year-old Kira Canhoto was killed by her grandmother Ana Maria Canhoto, who force-fed water to the child in order to "ward off evil spirits". (Vancouver Province, 1/11/96)
Charity Miranda was suffocated with a plastic bag in 1998 in Sayville, New York by her mother and sister, during a Cuban Voodoo exorcism ritual.
Korean woman Joanna Lee died in early December 2001, during a violent and prolonged exorcism performed in Auckland, New Zealand by Korean church minister Luke Lee. Her decomposing body was prayed over for several days before authorities were notified. During his subsequent trial, Luke Lee claimed that Joanna Lee would rise from the dead in a few days. Lee was imprisoned but has appealed the conviction.
Terrance Cottrell Jr., an eight-year-old autistic child, died of asphyxiation in 2003 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin during an exorcism carried out by members of the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith, in an attempt to expel the boy's demons. The coroner ruled that the boy died "due to external chest compression" as the part-time pastor lay on top of him. On July 10, 2004, the pastor was convicted of child abuse.
In 2005, a 23 year old Romanian nun called Maricica Irina Cornici, who had previously received treatment for schizophrenia, heard voices telling her she was sinful. She was subjected to exorcism allegedly conducted by 29-year-old Daniel Petre Corogeanu, an Orthodox monk of the Holy Trinity convent in the nearby village of Tanacu. Cornici was bound to a cross, gagged with a towel, and left in a cold, dark room without food or water for three days.[1][2] Initially it was believed that she died of suffocation and dehydration during the exorcism. However an autopsy carried out on the exhumed body showed that she died of an adrenaline overdose mistakenly administered by a medic.

 

[Dancing David]

I am not sure death is a desired outcome for treatment.



Many people try to exorcise mental illness, usualy not with success. There are some people who benefit, if it is a culturaly appropriate intervention. But tghe same outcome would come cognitive behavioral intervention.

 

[freudianlip]

I am not sure death is a desired outcome for treatment.



Many people try to exorcise mental illness, usualy not with success. There are some people who benefit, if it is a culturaly appropriate intervention. But tghe same outcome would come cognitive behavioral intervention.

Also in the examples cited I think that it is difficult to discern who was really mentally unstable :the sufferer or the exorcist..most likely the exorcist!
Is it a cost-benefit approach. It benefits main stream non-religious patients to be treated with standardised therapies, or in the biomedical approach therapies/drugs. How do techniques these work with mainstream religious 'possessed' individuals? Does it depend on the extent of their faith in man or the alleged power of the exorcist? In other words 'what ever floats your boat'

 

[Lynx2174]

Also in the examples cited I think that it is difficult to discern who was really mentally unstable :the sufferer or the exorcist..most likely the exorcist!
Is it a cost-benefit approach. It benefits main stream non-religious patients to be treated with standardised therapies, or in the biomedical approach therapies/drugs. How do techniques these work with mainstream religious 'possessed' individuals? Does it depend on the extent of their faith in man or the alleged power of the exorcist? In other words 'what ever floats your boat'

Any mainstream treatment or medicine is expected to perform better than placebo. And this, my friend, is a (perhaps incredibly elaborate but nontheless) placebo.

Psychological disorders are hard to treat, let alone cure. Sadly, there's no one-size-fits-all medicine that works for everyone with a particular set of symptoms.

Hell, I'm Catholic, and I think it's total bollocks.

 

[thisninjascrazy]

Then again, there's a lot of bum information floating around the secular community about mental illnesses. It wasn't too long ago that Schizophrenia was often mistaken with Multiple Personality Disorder. I can only imagine how much misinformation there is in communities that still practise exorcisms.

 

[freudianlip]

Any mainstream treatment or medicine is expected to perform better than placebo. And this, my friend, is a (perhaps incredibly elaborate but nontheless) placebo.QUOTE]

Therein lies the crux..standardised techniques are expected to perform better....Why then do individuals seek relief from faith? Have they lost their 'faith' in mainstream medicine or is it solely a refuge of those who belive their situation is hopeless? Or is religious respite their first expected sucessful intervention?

 

[freudianlip]

Then again, there's a lot of bum information floating around the secular community about mental illnesses. It wasn't too long ago that Schizophrenia was often mistaken with Multiple Personality Disorder. I can only imagine how much misinformation there is in communities that still practise exorcisms.

I hear that and second it! Unfortunately, in the dark depths of our so termed 'progressive' civilisation our most neglected truth is that sufferers of mental illness are swiftly deposited by society into the hands of medical practitioners whom themselves may have not updated their own perspectives.
Still ...the psychiatric /psychological community are in constant debate regarding their own bible (as it were) the highly contentious DSM-V!

 

[Cuddles]

Fair enough, but the only alleged evidence I can locate is a list of 'exorcism' related deaths.

Exactly. There is no evidence that exorcism exists. There is evidence that people attempting to exorcise others are sadistic murderers, but that is not the same thing. You cannot ask if exorcism is a "clear example of mind over matter", when you have no evidence to suggest it even exists. There is no point discussing whether it might be a placebo when there is no evidence that it has ever done anything at all.

 

[freudianlip]

Exactly. There is no evidence that exorcism exists. There is evidence that people attempting to exorcise others are sadistic murderers, but that is not the same thing. You cannot ask if exorcism is a "clear example of mind over matter", when you have no evidence to suggest it even exists. There is no point discussing whether it might be a placebo when there is no evidence that it has ever done anything at all.

Exorcism as a ritual does exist, but evidence regarding it as a successful treatment is more difficult to obtain ( if it exists at all,I would imagine it to be a purely subjective perspective). However,those apparently ' charismatic' preachers do utilize exorcism type methodologies during their services to create religious fervour with their followers. Some, even de-sensitised themselves to snake venom and proclaim standing in a box with rattlesnakes as evidence of the power of their god over satan, inspiring increased levels of faith (for their followers) in their abilities to evince the power of their god to 'cast out' demonic entities. Are we observing a previously unnamed psychiatric disorder where the attempt to believe is compatible with possibly fatal risk of self-harm.

 

[Dancing David]

Also in the examples cited I think that it is difficult to discern who was really mentally unstable :the sufferer or the exorcist..most likely the exorcist!
Is it a cost-benefit approach. It benefits main stream non-religious patients to be treated with standardised therapies, or in the biomedical approach therapies/drugs. How do techniques these work with mainstream religious 'possessed' individuals? Does it depend on the extent of their faith in man or the alleged power of the exorcist? In other words 'what ever floats your boat'

Uh, probably not when there effective treatments and children are killed and abandoned because of these silly things.