9/11 on Google Earth
- Thread starter celestrin
- Start date
Do you have as much experience as the NTSB professionals who put together the animation and CSV files?
If not then why do you think you are more correct?
NTSB puts impact at 09:37:45. 1.5 DME was recorded at 09:37:43 which based on slant range can only put it on north side (south side would place it back further away from the wall).
The NTSB calculates 173' Pressure altitude at 09:37:44. Based on speed and time, that is 783 feet west of the pentagon wall.
Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
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You're on the wrong path - stucked within the Data from the
NTSB and FBI. It's a dead end, Lyte Trip. I also looked into it
from european view - hoping to find something - and it didn't
happend... Six Years after - and nothing happend - or will
happen.
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1. No.
2. More correct regarding...?
3a. You're slowly getting there. The last PfT frame is at :43 and the last NTSB frame is at :44, while the impact time is :45. The NTSB CSV also has empty frames at :46 and :47. So, the final PfT frame is at least between 2-4 seconds(1600'-3200') from impact. Pole #1 would be approx. 1 second from impact.
3b. You are wrong and I dont feel like explaining why for the 500th time. If you think you are right, explain yourself. Please, give me the slant range and actual range based on either a) 229' pressure altitude or b) 273' Radar altitude at 1.5 NM. Explain the heading and track angle true and how they corroberate the "North of the Citgo" claim.
4. So the FDR created the :46 and :47 frames after it was destroyed. Interesting theory.....please see the thread I linked above.
Prove that 77 is 783 feet west of the pentagon at :44. Show me. Where the NTSB FDR data shows where the plane is at :44. You got the PA wrong too.
defaultdotxbe
Drunken Shikigami
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you mean the same NTSB who corrected in the wrogn direction for true north on their animation? you seem to put a lot of blind faith into a government agency
The animation map is not correct on the NTSB video, the data is correct, you do not understand how the animation was made. The line up with the Pentagon is off by 20 degrees, they made a mistake due to the fact they do not use NAV data to line up the map on the animation. The data is run and the positions are relaitve using the raw data to calculate the position. IE, they have speed and direction for each second, and they plot this independant of the ground. Seems like I could catch the rotation error in their map, and I do have experience with FDR readouts, I have used FDR data in real aircraft investigations for large aircraft, the KC-10, a DC-10 mil version. I am familar with NTSB animations, and have used them when training pilots. I may have more experience than the person who did the animation with the FDR data; was he new?
Your next question is not valid.
NTSB does not really have an impact time. They only supply data to the FBI. 1.5 DME is from the DCA VOR and as already said when you use the headings from the FDR with the 1.5 DME you are 2800 to 3200 feet away from the Pentagon. You should try again to place 77 with respect to all the data. Slant range at this altitude is negligable, you are not using your head and have listened to JDX he does not even know a NM is 6067 feet, he was correcting others with wrong data. HINT the ground distance at this altitude for 1.5 dme is about 9100 feet. What did JDX come up with.
Your postion is not backed up by the FDR, and you have no idea where the plane is.
BTW the final heading does not deviate more than a degree for over 12 seconds, your turns are impossible and not on the FDR. The final line up with the Pentagon is steady for over 12 seconds, that is over 7000 feet plus going straigh toward the Pentagon and the data stops over 2800 feet away, and does not match your story.
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I'll make this a little easier on you Lyte. None of the following points are open to interperetation; they are not debatable. They can be proven or disproven beyond the shadow of a doubt to a reasonable person using nothing but the facts as we know them, coupled with a little math. Do you agree that:
- The slant range is 9114' at the :43 frame. yes or no?
- The actual range is 9099' using 229' PA. yes or no?
- The actual range is 9109' using 273' RA. yes or no?
- The track angle true represnts the aircrafts direction of flight. yes or no?
- The track angle true was 61.2 degrees in the :43 frame. yes or no?
- The 61.2 true track working backwards from the impact point lines up with the downed light poles? yes or no?
- If you create a 9099~9109' radius around the DCA VOR/DME station, the 61.2 true track working backwards from the impact point intersects that radius south of the Citgo. yes or no?
While this image has the track angle 0.95 degrees off, it clearly shows that the PfT/NTSB Nav Track Angle True lines up more or less perfectly with the mechanical damage path and downed light poles. Do you agree Lyte?
Flight path and mechanical damage, by McMike
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CurtC
Illuminator
Thanks for helping me catch up. I've not been to the PfT forum, nor did I read the JDX thread.
Here's my next question: you call it the "final lat/long position," but how was that value arrived at? Did the onboard nav system adjust the readings gradually in flight, so that by the end we're using the raw lat/long data, or has someone adjusted the lat/long data? I thought that the raw data was off by 20 miles or so, so if the last data point at :43 is being placed southwest of the Sheraton, who placed it there?
Mince
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Lyte, pardon the interruption.
If no plane hit the Pentagon, which FDR are you talking about? You stated that professionals from PfT have analyzed the FDR. How so, if no flight crashed?
It should be "raw" from start to finish. The FDR is constantly pulling data from the Flight Data Acquisition Unit, which in turn gathers data from the various systems. Two of these systems are the FMS(Flight Management System) and IRS(Inertial Reference System), both of which supply the aircrafts present position, in lat/long, to the FDAU - along with a heap of other navigation data. Once recorded and decoded(with frame descriptors - see below) the position should NOT need to be modified in any way by whoever is doing the decoding. It should be readily plotable(is that a word?).
When I mentioned the position updating that takes place, this is done automatically by the FMS, and it's strictly to make sure the aircrafts sensed lat/long is corrected for any gyroscopic drift. This accuracy is to keep the airplane on course, not for the sake of the FDR. The FDR just wants to know where the plane thinks it is....
Two data sources.
The 20 mile error is from the 911Myths CSV file. PfT was able to get ahold of the raw NTSB .fdr file as well as a engineering unit conversion table(frame descriptors) to decode the raw file. Most of the data is apparently very similar to the 911 myths decoded CSV file except the lat/long, which I think the NTSB didn't decode properly.
The track he got, it 60.25, that is in the ballpark of 61.2 the last data points. As 77 got lower the drift would fall off, and the true track may move to the left. The drift angle was 1.4 degrees right, as the plane gets lower the wind usually falls off, and the 1.4 would be less. Just a small note.
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CurtC
Illuminator
Thank you for that explanation, it was exactly what I was looking for.
I'm impressed that the PfT actually got something accomplished like this. But it seems to completely destroy their whole raison d’être: that the FDR data supposedly showed that AA77 was over 400 feet in the air when it passed over that intersection with the light poles. How are those guys handling this fact?
I have never seen PFT place 77 any where with the data, they just make up where they want it to be. Go ask, and be banned.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
P4T claims that the data matchs the NTSB animation and therefore cannot be Flight 77 as we know it.
They simply refuse to acknowledge that the ground map does not match the FDR data
As beach says, go and ask about this at P4T and get banned.
I tried once brining up the DME reading and was roundly ignored IIRC
They simply refuse to acknowledge that the ground map does not match the FDR data
As beach says, go and ask about this at P4T and get banned.
I tried once brining up the DME reading and was roundly ignored IIRC
Heck, I didn't even bring up the FDR stuff, and I got banned. They don't like questions over there; much less questions from known skeptics. Anyways...
Beachy put it better than I can - they simply decide where they want the plane to be(north of the Citgo, too high over the poles, etc) and they throw out the parameters that disagree(track angle, lat/long, etc) and highlight the ones that support it.
For the sake of argument, I could see throwing out the position because it was so far off at the beginning, but if you use the all of the remaining parameters - you can still accurately place the plane and that placement is the SE corner of the Navy Annex, still 3000' from impact.
They also like to assume that the 09:37:44 frame occured less than one second from impact for 2 reasons - the official impact time is 09:37:45 and the fact that the plane stopped recording after the :44 frame. Using that logic, since the light poles were around a second from impact and altitude of the airplane at that point was some 500' - the plane was too high to hit the poles and must've flown over....The problem with that is, as mentioned above, the FDR parameters on the whole don't support it and the Pentagon eyewitnesses, especially CITs start witnesses, reported a plane that needed to pull-up to miss the DO NOT ENTER sign as well as the building. A plane at 500 ft would clear the roof with 420' to spare.
Beachy put it better than I can - they simply decide where they want the plane to be(north of the Citgo, too high over the poles, etc) and they throw out the parameters that disagree(track angle, lat/long, etc) and highlight the ones that support it.
For the sake of argument, I could see throwing out the position because it was so far off at the beginning, but if you use the all of the remaining parameters - you can still accurately place the plane and that placement is the SE corner of the Navy Annex, still 3000' from impact.
They also like to assume that the 09:37:44 frame occured less than one second from impact for 2 reasons - the official impact time is 09:37:45 and the fact that the plane stopped recording after the :44 frame. Using that logic, since the light poles were around a second from impact and altitude of the airplane at that point was some 500' - the plane was too high to hit the poles and must've flown over....The problem with that is, as mentioned above, the FDR parameters on the whole don't support it and the Pentagon eyewitnesses, especially CITs start witnesses, reported a plane that needed to pull-up to miss the DO NOT ENTER sign as well as the building. A plane at 500 ft would clear the roof with 420' to spare.
Here's my crappy image:
The one I linked is rather large and takes several seconds even on DSL. If it stops loading or gets "stuck", you might get it to work by clearing your cache and trying it again.
I need the popcorn eating smilies.
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
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