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Is Primal Therapy woo?

Gnu Ordure said:
You mean because it's not a very good album, Robert ?

Surely not, but tastes differ, I suppose.

Anyway, Janov wasn't sayng that his undoubted influence on the album was "proof that their therapy works" - just that it helped Lennon compose the album, which is true.

And given that 37 years later, the album is considered by Rolling Stone magazine to be the 22nd Greatest Album Ever Made, I think Janov is entitled to feel some degree of satisfaction about his contribution to it.

Personally, I love it, harrowing though it is in parts.

Gnu.
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Hey! Janov can take no credit for that album whatsoever. He's a certified ellron who happened to be one among the many people Lennon saw during his life -- are they all going to credit themselves for having influenced John?

Janov is a leech with a penchant for self-aggrandizement and a rudimentary knowledge of marketing. Oh, and he knows what buttons to push to make you cry, just like every other charismatic con that ever existed.

M.
 
Hi, everyone--a longtime lurker here with a bit to add regarding the original question/thread title. About myself: I'm a psychology professor who wrote a skeptical reference book (Popular Psychology: An Encyclopedia, from Greenwood Press, if anyone cares), and in that process I did some digging into just how bizarre these folks are. Here's a very brief excerpt from my entry on Janov (it's only a paragraph, and I'm the author, so no intellectual property problems here)--note the remarkable similarities to Dianetics/Scientology:


Given the questionable, indeed bizarre, theoretical underpinning of primal therapy, the absence of controlled scientific evidence is unsurprising. Consider, for example, the claim that trauma associated with conception can be a major source of Pain in adulthood. Primal therapists teach that if a child is conceived through rape, the egg and sperm are imprinted with specific feelings about the incident and pass this memory along to all cells of the child’s body. This will of course cause lifelong pain and anxiety, until the patient learns (with the help of primal therapy, of course) to release those feelings. The idea that individual cells, especially gametes, actually possess either feelings or memories, and are furthermore able to pass those feelings along to all subsequent cells they produce, thus leading to psychological trauma felt by the organism as a whole, is sufficiently ludicrous, on many levels, to be undeserving of any attempt at systematic criticism other than to say that it is completely incompatible with what is known about memory and feelings, to say nothing of cellular biology.
Janov has more recently attempted (in his latest book, The Biology of Love ) to connect his ideas to more conventional knowledge in neuroscience, in the hope of gaining greater scientific legitimacy. In agreeing with neurochemists that becoming emotionally upset and screaming can cause a release of endorphins, which of course will produce a feeling of well-being, he actually harms his case more than he helps it. This phenomenon is also well-known among athletes, after all, and there is no reason to believe that the “runner’s high” is associated with the release of repressed trauma. The strenuous activity provides a complete explanation of the phenomenon.
The Primal Scream was published more than thirty years ago, and primal therapy is essentially unaltered from its earliest state—while undeniably an inventive and intriguing approach to psychotherapy, it lacks the underpinning of scientific validation which potential clients ought to be able to expect at this point in our history.



Just my $.02.
Luis
 
Quackwatch dictionary said:
primal therapy (primal scream therapy):

Psychotherapeutic method developed by child psychologist Arthur Janov, author of The Primal Scream (1970). Primal therapists dispense with analysis and purportedly attempt to resolve neuroses through a process of painful catharsis. Janov maintained that, to be effective, psychotherapy must uncover repressed "primal pains" -- unpleasant events undergone not only during childhood and infancy, but even in the fetal and embryonic stages. According to Janov, patients can dispel "primal pains" only by re-experiencing them and giving them physical expression (e.g., by screaming). The crux of primal therapy is rebirthing.
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Not just woo, but old woo.

Linky - http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/dictionary/mdp.html
 
Janov is a leech with a penchant for self-aggrandizement and a rudimentary knowledge of marketing. Oh, and he knows what buttons to push to make you cry, just like every other charismatic con that ever existed.
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Don't hold back, Moochie, tell us how you really feel.

You really hate these people, don't you ?

I'm really curious about what this guy Farrant did to you; it must have pretty bad. In which case you have my sympathy.

No problem if you don't wish to tell us, I appreciate it's a very personal question.

I still think you're wrong on the Lennon question, though. I know he had many influences, but it is generally acknowledged by musical historians that Janov had a significant effect on Lennon while he was making that one album.

My online musical encyclopedia of choice, allmusic.com, says this:

"Inspired by his primal scream therapy with Dr. Arthur Janov, Lennon created a harrowing set of unflinchingly personal songs, laying out all of his fears and angers for everyone to hear."

Not just an influence, but an inspiration, apparently...

I rather think that Lennon confirmed this, when he chose to conclude side one, track one, of his first solo album after leaving the Beatles, with a long series of harrowing screams...




Annoying though it may be, Janov's name will go down in history.

Your only consolation, Moochie, is that it will be as a foot-note in Lennon's story, rather than "in his own write." (heh-heh, geddit?).


Gnu.
 
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Hi, everyone--a longtime lurker here with a bit to add regarding the original question/thread title. About myself: I'm a psychology professor who wrote a skeptical reference book (Popular Psychology: An Encyclopedia, from Greenwood Press, if anyone cares),
Click to expand...

Hi Luis.

Can I offer some unsolicited advice ? I may be wrong, because I'm new here myself, but if someone introduces themselves to a forum, and immediately mentions a product which may be bought, some people might doubt their motives....

Do you see what I mean ?

In your case, since the rest of your post was most interesting, relevant and informative, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even to the extent of giving your book another mention.


I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker.

And a simple theoretical explanaton for this might be that attention is a fundamental human need (which it is, it's absolutely essential in early child development, as I'm sure you know), so adults still like it when others pay attention to them, and it feels good.



Gnu.
 
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Originally Posted by Gnu Ordure
...a long series of harrowing screams...
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Ono.
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Ah yes, Jeff.

I am aware of the alternative theory that far from re-living birth trauma, he was merely reacting to the prospect of waking up every single day for the rest of his life next to Yoko.

A tad uncharitable, I feel, but the idea has merit.
 
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Gnu Ordure said:
Hi Luis.

I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.
Gnu.
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to plug the book, really. It's a reference book and too damned expensive anyway. Sorry if I gave that impression.

I agree that many therapies appear to work about equally well, thanks to non-specific effects.
In your description of these effects, I think the key phrase is "to a certain extent." These sorts of effects (someone pays attention to you and you feel a little better, + most illness is self-limiting, etc.) lead people to think all kinds of useless things help (craniosacral therapy and homeopathy immediately spring to mind).
To someone like a primal therapist, however, the theory matters a great deal. Their claim isn't that coming to them may result in you feeling a little better. It is that the cells of your body contain the Pain (always capitalized) and that they can be made to release it through screaming. Since the Pain is stored throughout the body, the screaming can resolve (according to some of Janov's writings) serious organic disease as well.

Nonspecific effects of therapy (the reason why, in large meta-analyses of psychotherapy, one therapy seems as effective--or more honestly, ineffective--as another, when minor anxieties/neuroses/etc. are being treated) work well to make some people feel less anxious/shy/depressed/fearful/whatever, but the thing these sorts of folks NEVER claim up front is: If you come to us, you'll feel a little better for a while, and we've made up an elaborate reason why.
If they said that, I'd have no problem with them.

Since they instead provide an explanation that requires that much of what we know about both cellular biology and memory be incorrect, and are now attempting to shove this round peg of theory into the square world of neuroscience, well, frankly, they bother me.

I'm especially concerned (given your statements about all therapies working to some extent) by the primal therapy people's frequent assertions in their materials and online presence that only they can really help you.
Again, the parallels to/outright-stealing-from Scientology jump out at me.
 
Gnu Ordure said:
Ah yes, Jeff.

I am aware of the alternative theory that far from re-living birth trauma, he was merely reacting to the prospect of waking up every single day for the rest of his life next to Yoko.

A tad uncharitable, I feel, but the idea has merit.
Click to expand...

Hey! I like Yoko!
:mad:
 
Gnu Ordure said:
Don't hold back, Moochie, tell us how you really feel.

You really hate these people, don't you ?
Click to expand...

Hate? That's way too harsh for the derision I feel for charlatans of all sorts. :D

I'm really curious about what this guy Farrant did to you; it must have pretty bad. In which case you have my sympathy.

No problem if you don't wish to tell us, I appreciate it's a very personal question.
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Farrant did, precisely, nothing. He ran a scam operation in which he had people that'd been through the "therapy" act as "therapists."

Indirectly, he and his operation added immeasurably to my education as a skeptic.

I still think you're wrong on the Lennon question, though. I know he had many influences, but it is generally acknowledged by musical historians that Janov had a significant effect on Lennon while he was making that one album.
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I think you really underestimate Lennon.

My online musical encyclopedia of choice, allmusic.com, says this:

"Inspired by his primal scream therapy with Dr. Arthur Janov, Lennon created a harrowing set of unflinchingly personal songs, laying out all of his fears and angers for everyone to hear."

Not just an influence, but an inspiration, apparently...

I rather think that Lennon confirmed this, when he chose to conclude side one, track one, of his first solo album after leaving the Beatles, with a long series of harrowing screams...
Click to expand...
Lennon's time with Janov was extremely short. John took what he wanted and moved on. If you know any "primal screamers," most have great difficulty in moving on. My take on it is that Lennon saw through this prick in 6/8 time.

Annoying though it may be, Janov's name will go down in history.
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As the consumate fraud that he is.

Your only consolation, Moochie, is that it will be as a foot-note in Lennon's story, rather than "in his own write." (heh-heh, geddit?).
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Yeah, I "geddit." :)

My other consolation is that people will be much more aware of charismatic cons like Janov.


M.
 
Gnu Ordure said:
Hi Luis.

Can I offer some unsolicited advice ? I may be wrong, because I'm new here myself, but if someone introduces themselves to a forum, and immediately mentions a product which may be bought, some people might doubt their motives....

Do you see what I mean ?

In your case, since the rest of your post was most interesting, relevant and informative, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Even to the extent of giving your book another mention.


I agree with you on the dodgy theoretical basis for PT. But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker.

And a simple theoretical explanaton for this might be that attention is a fundamental human need (which it is, it's absolutely essential in early child development, as I'm sure you know), so adults still like it when others pay attention to them, and it feels good.



Gnu.
Click to expand...


I don't think Janov, et al, changed the generally acknowledged paradigm that a third of psychotherapists' clients get better, a third don't change, and a third get worse.

My experience of "primalers" certainly bears this out. One that I know went on to become a psychologist via an accredited university course; many splintered off and went deeper into woo-woo territory (past lives, etc.), and some went on to become life-long "patients."

In the case of John Lennon, I figure he remained the same, and used his experience to make an interesting, if flawed, album.

M.
 
Their claim ... (snip) .... is that the cells of your body contain the Pain (always capitalized) and that they can be made to release it through screaming.
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I agree Luis, the science is dubious, to say the least.

What I'm suggesting is that the process of undergoing PT might be beneficial, even if the theory might be (to coin a phrase) bollocks.

And since I have no actual idea of what undergoing PT might involve, beyond screaming, this really reduces to the possibility that ....

... "Having a good scream might make you feel better."

And that might be true, right ? ....

What do people do in the House of Horror, or on the Big Dipper ? They scream. And it feels good. And then they pay to do it again.


Conclusion ?


It's good to scream.


But some of those rides are really expensive, y'know.


It might be cheaper to go a therapist and scream.




Gnu.
 
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Gnu Ordure said:
snip...But are you familiar with the research that suggests that to a certain extent, the theory of a particular therapy is irrelevent to any effect ?

The idea is that all therapies have certain attributes in common, and it is these attributes, rather than other aspects such as the theory, which are responsible for effects.

For example, all therapists give their clients/patients their undivided attention. And even if they do nothing else, if they just sit listening silently, but still paying attention, this may have a beneficial effect on the speaker..snip
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Anyone fancy some placebo and TLC?
 
debunking primal therapy website

There is a website out there debunking primal therapy, although I can't type the link in here, you will have to google it.
I am the author and would love feedback from you guys.
By the way you guys are good.
I have experience of primal therapy, and confirm that it does have all the hallmarks of a pseudoscience. And all my cohorts who went through it with me either had a placebo experience or got worse.
Needs clinical testing to either show some use for something (it's possible, I guess), and to test for iatrogenic effects. The grand claims of Dr Janov will continue until we can pin them down on this. They say it is better than all other therapies (totally false I think), and we have to get them to show the proof in the pudding.
 
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