20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

[WildCat]

What pisses me off to no end about the VT incident is that this guy was known to have mental problems, was determined to be a danger to himself and others, but due to medical privacy laws was able to conceal this fact and allowed to buy guns. Mentally ill people have no business buying guns (and in most or all states are forbidden from doing so), but the stupid privacy laws make it impossible for a seller to know this as it will not show up on a background check. The stupid authorities would not comment on his mental illness at press conferences because of privacy laws... how the hell can a dead man's privacy be violated? I suspect the school and local officials are now in full-blown CYA mode, this guy was a known loon who had had enough contact with the police and psychiatrists for it to be known he was a ticking time bomb. Even one of his professors reported him for being mentally unstable! This was not a case of "he semed like such a nice young man", everyone knew he was a loon and nobody did a damn thing about it.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

What pisses me off to no end about the VT incident is that this guy was known to have mental problems, was determined to be a danger to himself and others, but due to medical privacy laws was able to conceal this fact and allowed to buy guns. Mentally ill people have no business buying guns (and in most or all states are forbidden from doing so), but the stupid privacy laws make it impossible for a seller to know this as it will not show up on a background check. The stupid authorities would not comment on his mental illness at press conferences because of privacy laws... how the hell can a dead man's privacy be violated? I suspect the school and local officials are now in full-blown CYA mode, this guy was a known loon who had had enough contact with the police and psychiatrists for it to be known he was a ticking time bomb. Even one of his professors reported him for being mentally unstable! This was not a case of "he semed like such a nice young man", everyone knew he was a loon and nobody did a damn thing about it.

People did everything that they legally could do about it. I just saw one of his English teachers on the news and she decided to pull him out of class and tutor him alone. She even had a code word in case he tried to attack her.

In IL, you have to wait five years after being hospilatized to purchase a gun, IIRC.

 

[sat556]

I see society everywhere as pretty dangerous. Though you might not want to take the word of someone like me. But I don't see a gun as some "extreme" form of self-defense. It is a potentially lethal weapon that will get people to stop.

Isn't running away a good option in some cases? I feel that maybe in a society where there are a lot of guns, the answer would be 'no'. Simply because instead of running after you, the criminal type can simply shoot you as you go.
I suppose that is what I mean by extreme. You feel the need to have something that has the potential to kill a person, rather than just the means to get out of the situation.

 

[WildCat]

People did everything that they legally could do about it. I just saw one of his English teachers on the news and she decided to pull him out of class and tutor him alone. She even had a code word in case he tried to attack her.

In IL, you have to wait five years after being hospilatized to purchase a gun, IIRC.

But it's basically an honor system - you just say you're not mentally ill and because of the medical privacy laws there's no way to check this out. This shouldn't be the case IMHO.

Anyone see the video and pics the shooter sent to NBC in between the shootings? Unbelievable...

 

[fuelair]

Indeed, non shooters don't realize just how difficult it is to actually hit a rapidly moving target with a pistol in a crisis situation, but action movies would have you believe it is as simple as point and clicking. The only reason he was able to kill so many people was they were confined yet attempting to move away from him. Had he stepped through that door and was immediately tackled, he would have been completely taken off guard, even if he managed to drop the assailant. There was also, apparently, three shots for every victim. I would be living with a lot of guilt had I ran away in such a situation. Sad..

And with a holstered weapon and person with the knife at 21 feet, the officer is dead or wounded before he can draw and fire.

 

[fuelair]

I just caught that Nikki Giovanni was one of his teachers! She's still cool - and smart - had him booted out of her class!!!

 

[fuelair]

I forgot to add a - I don't take too many of Dustin's posts seriously and the thought of arming professors obviously doesn't take into consideration the amount of professors who shouldn't be trusted with crayolas, much less a firearm.

I think my assertion toward the beginning of the thread that key personnel in each building be given a radio (complete with a duress code and timely/routine status checks during an incident) is sufficient to allow police to pinpoint a gunman.

Sorry! All fine!!!

 

[Katana]

But it's basically an honor system - you just say you're not mentally ill and because of the medical privacy laws there's no way to check this out. This shouldn't be the case IMHO.

Anyone see the video and pics the shooter sent to NBC in between the shootings? Unbelievable...

It's a BS system and should be getting more attention. The guy LIED on his gun application about never having been involuntarily committed. NPR spent a bit of time on this, but no one is really focusing on it. They're too busy talking about his stupid fingerless gloves, his ammo vest, and "headband" (uh, Chris Matthews, that's called a backwards baseball hat, dumba**) that you can see in the pictures that they're continually showing on TV. Way to reward the idiot, guys. This is EXACTLY what he wanted and is what the next guy will want (and will now know he will get). Attention. Lots and lots of attention. No one paid attention to him when he was alive, but, by gosh, he's got the whole country salivating over every detail of his pathetic existence now that he's killed 30 people. Nice.

Virginia's gun laws (and any others that "function" like them) are a joke. This guy's mental health history, by law, should have prevented him from buying a gun, but the law relied on his word. Stupid. Just stupid.

 

[shanek]

Shhhhhhh! That boondogle happens to be my job security!

Oops! Sorry, didn't mean to interfere with you leeching off the taxpayer...

Seriously, have you heard of LEAP? Opinions?

 

[shanek]

Firstly, I'm seeing 'we need guns to defend ourselves' cropping up quite a bit. Now aside from amazing incidents like this school shooting, what exactly is it that you are defending yourselves against so frequently?

Do you have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen because your kitchen catches fire frequently?

Most of us will probably never know someone who knows someone who gets killed with a firearm. But like the fire extinguisher, you have it in the hopes you will never have to use it. Because as rare as it may be, the consequences of it actually happening are huge.

 

[shanek]

Isn't running away a good option in some cases?

Probably. In this case, it apparently wasn't an option.

 

[Ralph]

Isn't running away a good option in some cases? I feel that maybe in a society where there are a lot of guns, the answer would be 'no'. Simply because instead of running after you, the criminal type can simply shoot you as you go.
I suppose that is what I mean by extreme. You feel the need to have something that has the potential to kill a person, rather than just the means to get out of the situation.

There's a few exceptions but most states require you to do just that.
If you have the opportunity to simply run away from a situation you could wind up facing charges if you don't.

Let's say you've just gotten into your car when a man steps along side,starts banging on the window with a tire iron and politely says "Open the ######## door #######."

If you can simply drive away but instead choose to shoot the man you
could face criminal charges for your choice.

If however, you were blocked by traffic & couldn't get away--the law would generally rule that you had a right to fear for your life and were justified in shooting the guy.

It's not the "Wild West" here that many Europeans seem to think it is.

Most people who carry are very aware of the fact that if they use a firearm in self-defense they could easily wind up facing criminal & civil charges.
Even if they win---the legal fees will bankrupt them.

A little more leeway is allowed in the home because of the "castle doctrine".

You can generally shoot an intruder in your home without fear of prosecution.
If he's headed out the door & running down the driveway and you shoot him---you'll probably wind up serving a longer prison term than the intruder would've gotten.

It's even more restrictive for LEOs. They often have to choose between using a firearm and risking their career or not----and risking their life.

 

[Meadmaker]

I wonder if anyone knows the statistics?

The FBI'e statistical branch keeps stats on mass murder. I tried a few minutes of link following, but didn't find it, so I stopped looking. Someone with more ambition can keep trying.

"Mass Murder" in this case is defined as a single perpetrator killing four or more people.

There is a wikipedia articlue on mass murder that lists lots of incidents.

However, I don't see much chance of the US gun enthusiasts ever understanding just how they're viewed in other societies. Barely civilised macho posturers with the worst case of testosterone poisoning on the planet, just for a start. Until these people start to get a glimmer of how others see them, I don't see how it's possible even to start applying the obvious lessons to be learned from the experiences of other countries.

I think there's some truth in that, but I remember a cartoon in my high school American History book. It was from a British newspaper of the early 19th century, and showed an American dinner table. A largish man was standing up, sticking a gun into the nose of someone across the table, saying "Pass the Salt".

And....I think we sort of like it that way.

 

[LawnOven]

Well now we may know why the police thought he left campus... because it looks like he did. To mail this...

Link

Midway through his murderous rampage, the Virginia Tech gunman went to the post office and mailed NBC a package containing photos and videos of him brandishing guns and delivering a snarling, profanity-laced tirade about rich "brats" and their "hedonistic needs." "You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui says in a harsh monotone. "But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off."
NBC said the package contained a rambling and often incoherent 23-page written statement, 28 video clips and 43 photos. Several of the photos showed him aiming handguns at the camera.

 

[fuelair]

There's a few exceptions but most states require you to do just that.
If you have the opportunity to simply run away from a situation you could wind up facing charges if you don't.

Let's say you've just gotten into your car when a man steps along side,starts banging on the window with a tire iron and politely says "Open the ######## door #######."

If you can simply drive away but instead choose to shoot the man you
could face criminal charges for your choice.

If however, you were blocked by traffic & couldn't get away--the law would generally rule that you had a right to fear for your life and were justified in shooting the guy.

It's not the "Wild West" here that many Europeans seem to think it is.

Most people who carry are very aware of the fact that if they use a firearm in self-defense they could easily wind up facing criminal & civil charges.
Even if they win---the legal fees will bankrupt them.

A little more leeway is allowed in the home because of the "castle doctrine".

You can generally shoot an intruder in your home without fear of prosecution.
If he's headed out the door & running down the driveway and you shoot him---you'll probably wind up serving a longer prison term than the intruder would've gotten.

It's even more restrictive for LEOs. They often have to choose between using a firearm and risking their career or not----and risking their life.

Fortunately, Florida is more reasonable on above. Friendly suggestion, act scared (especially if witnesses), accidently (fear showing) back into a corner, pull and put two or three in an educational place.

 

[Lonewulf]

Isn't running away a good option in some cases? I feel that maybe in a society where there are a lot of guns, the answer would be 'no'. Simply because instead of running after you, the criminal type can simply shoot you as you go.

Now you're speculating. You can name any scenario you want; many of them are possible. I could name scenarios where wanting a weapon for self-defense can become a necessity. I can also name people that have been roughly beaten up by others that weren't able to "run away". Some of them within the confines of their own home.

There are scenarios when a firearm may very well be necessary, and lesser scenarios where simply shouting, "I have a gun!" is enough to defuse the situation. In the greater scenarios, I'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. But I'm crazy like that.

When the case of a firearm does ever become a direct necessity, shouldn't people have the ability to use one?

I suppose that is what I mean by extreme. You feel the need to have something that has the potential to kill a person, rather than just the means to get out of the situation.

Hell yeah. You can list what you "think is" and "what might happen" and, "Oh, but what about this scenario", but what it comes down to is the simple fact that I want the best tool for the job. In some issues of self defense, no matter how rare, I want the ability to use that tool in that particular situation. And, you know what? I'm not scared of people that have guns. I've had many conversations with polite people that have concealed firearms; I know that I'm surrounded by many many people with concealed firearms. I'm still alive so far; where's the crazy drunks, the people on weed, the random violence?

No, the only act of random violence that I've heard about took place in a resteraunt here in Corpus Christi. Many people were gunned down by a person who brought a firearm in illegally. The others in the resteraunt, who were legal citizens, were not allowed to bring firearms in; one person had a firearm in her (his?) car, and ended up shot up by the lunatic. In that one situation, the death toll could have been seriously lessened; and the person that could not reach his firearm did have adequate training with it.

You may consider it extreme. I consider forcing someone to have no method of defending themself except their bare fists and head as extreme. We're coming from two different cultural backgrounds, but it's still a pretty important point.

I don't try to change the UK, nor do I attempt to act superior to the UK. And I get tired of people who continually flaunt how "superior" their system is, and how the U.S. needs to change everything to imitate the UK. And then they criticize Americans for doing the same.

I mean, geez.

We have enough things dividing people, I wish it didn't have to be random geographical lines on the atlas.

 

[fuelair]

I just can't not do this.

In the UK, of course, the criminals are polite and would never think of something so uncivilized as coshing a chap out for tea and crumpets. At most, a quiet burglary with a polite note or a mild request for the "loan" of a fiver or so is the province of the British criminal. Guns or knives? Indeed never will these soil the hands of a British Bad'un and never a hint of the old ultra-violence. Dog save the Queen!!

 

[Kopji]

You thought it was one pathetic boy’s life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.

The simple fact is that there is nothing that an open and free society can do to completely eliminate the risk posed by someone capable of these acts.

If a gun could not be purchased, it could be borrowed or stolen from a friend or otherwise. Gun laws providing for more invasion of privacy are not an answer. Better health care, especially mental health care, is an answer.

Mental illness carries a stigma with it. People fear mentally ill people and can interpret even innocent actions as threatening. Consider the obverse - the innocent mentally ill person living among sane and armed people who fear that you might do something 'crazy' - no matter how well trained you are in your firearm you are a person to be wary of.

I'm listening to MSNBC while typing this... doing their part to fan the flames of paranoia against mental illness. Yikes. Reporters. They realize that he had just killed a couple people before making this video right? Yeah he sure looks evil. They can tell he was capable of this just by looking in his eyes. Doh.

I am a little surprised that he had as much contact with the health care system as he had; but what would they do, brand an "M" on his forehead? How is not doing anything any different than the rest of the system? Are we going to lock people up who think about crime more quickly than we lock up people who actually commit crimes? Yeah.

I am mostly saddened by the stories of the dead, so many promising lives lost. Some people you are just amazed at their lives quality. The prof who survived the holocaust only to die barricading a door so students could escape. I do hope that such character is long remembered.

 

[steverino]

I can't believe this guy's "maniphesto," his poetry as it were, being broadcast on all the channels like he was friggin' Allen Ginsburg.

As I writer, I have to push so hard and promote my azz off just to get a dinky 300 word article into a newspaper and it still takes half a year. And I am one of the lucky ones. This wack-job's words are now known all over the world. They are discussing not just his words, but his combat clothes, hair, facial expressions. Pitty that it is tough for so many of us to get the littlest bit of recognition for positive artistic contributions to society. Then this comes along and there is plenty of room in the newspapers and on the air.

OK. It is true he ain't around to "enjoy" the big show. But he seems to be touted as some sick roll model, and I worry that others will copy-cat him.

 

[a_unique_person]

Off the top of my head, the UK has far higher burglary, robbery, and assault rates than the US. The US has a higher murder rate. But it can be tricky comparing rates from different countries, as the reporting and classifications may be different.

And a good portion of murders here in the US are from drug gangs fighting over turf, not from legal gun owners shooting each other over a traffic dispute. Hooray for the idiotic drug laws here...

UK has a drug problem too.