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20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

Marquis de Carabas said:
Maybe if we all turn out the lights, stare into our monitors, and say "Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen", he will appear.
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(BPSCG mutters "Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen", clicks "Refresh" button)

Nope.

Another urban legend debunked.
 
BPSCG said:
(BPSCG mutters "Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen, Bloody Larsen", clicks "Refresh" button)
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812462675dd5d837.jpg


Now look what you've done!
 
Mephisto said:
Welcome to the forum, Kariboo.
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Thanks!

Mephisto said:
I'll have to start out agreeing with BPSCG, which if you've been lurking in the forums for awhile you'll realize is no small thing.
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:eek: Well, if nothing else the thread has achieved that.
Let me know if you want me to start a fund raiser for your upcoming therapy:D

Mephisto said:
I think BPSCG has covered all your questions sufficiently, but I would like to add that in order to stop violence once it's at the point that it reached yesterday, one would have to be extremely well-trained in some form of martial art (that emphasized non-violence - not all do) or have a non-lethal weapon on hand (a stun gun, pepper spray) that could distract the gunman long enough to allow the victims to subdue him.

The recent attack at the Amish school should prove that non-violence alone won't stop a gunman determined to kill and injure innocent people. However, I would strongly assert that even a non-lethal weapon that would incapacitate an attack would leave him vulnerable to a very emotional counter attack.
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I think I responded to your remarks this in my post to BPSCG. I think that maybe it is possible to create an overall less violent society by being less violent ourselves but that might not stop the occasional spree or serial killer.

On the other hand there might be less spree killers.

On yet another hand;if there are more people ready to defend themselves in a situation like in Virginia there are also more people out there who are likely to make a mistake, a misjudgment or might be willing to use violence in a situation that is a lot more ambiguous.

KAriboo
 
BPSCG said:
Which raises another question, mostly for people opposed to the death penalty:

If you (that's the editorial you, or "y'all" as we say in the South, not just "Darat you") are happy/satisfied/relieved that Mr. Cho ended the day by killing himself, would you be happy/satisfied/relieved had he been captured, and (assuming he'd been found sane and guilty) been executed?
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No. Nor would I be "satisfied" or "happy" if he had been forced to kill himself or brutally killed while surrendering.

I do not get cheap thrills or cheap satisfaction at the ending of life. I think that's what seperates me from Cho.

If there is one thing I am happy/satisfied/relieved over is that Cho did not continue his rampage.

Death in the case of self defense is a necessity. Death by order of execution is not.
 
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Tsukasa Buddha said:
The evidence I've seen tells me that the presence of weapons increases violent behavior in individuals. It also tells me that people will defend themselves when the are properly equipped. I submit that the presense of a gun, just like any other weapon, will increase violent and self-defensive behavior.

I support gun rights and the Second Amendment.
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You are absolutely incorrect about weapons presence increasing violent behavior in people. In fact, if anything the opposite is true. By your logic, those with concealed carry permits should be wholesale mass murdering. In fact violent crime, including murder not only drops in states with concealed carry laws, but those who carry have criminal conviction rate a TINY fraction of their non-carry peers. www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html+concealed+carry+permit+homicide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Consider that argument demolished and desposed of. What next?
 
BPSCG said:
Does it? I think that now that we've found out more about him, there's little disagreement that Cho Seung-Hui was deranged. How is "society" to blame for that? I am part of society; how did I contribute to his madness? What should I - and the rest of us - have done, in retrospect, to keep him from going mad?
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If this were one, isolated, incident, you would have a point. However, it isn't. Our society has more murders than other societies, per capita. Within the category of murder, our society has more incidents of homicidal gunmen shooting several people at a time than other societies.

Why? One incident you could write off as an anomaly, but the fact that if you live in the United States, you are more likely to die to a bullet than if you live in France. I think that means we are doing something different than the French.

What should we do differently? That's a more difficult question? If we could identify something as a cause, would the cost of changing it be worth it? Again, difficult question.
 
Meadmaker said:
If this were one, isolated, incident, you would have a point. However, it isn't. Our society has more murders than other societies, per capita. Within the category of murder, our society has more incidents of homicidal gunmen shooting several people at a time than other societies.
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Incidents like the VT one are rare, even freak occurrences. Most of the violent crime in this country is drug-related. How much of that do you think would be left if we stopped the insane War on Drugs?
 
shanek said:
Incidents like the VT one are rare, even freak occurrences. Most of the violent crime in this country is drug-related. How much of that do you think would be left if we stopped the insane War on Drugs?
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Shhhhhhh! That boondogle happens to be my job security!:rolleyes:
 
Hi all.

To the people who own guns, I have been wondering about a couple of things here.

Firstly, I'm seeing 'we need guns to defend ourselves' cropping up quite a bit. Now aside from amazing incidents like this school shooting, what exactly is it that you are defending yourselves against so frequently? Is society in the USA so violent and criminal that a weapon like that is needed? Is the type of crime always something that requires you to pull out a lethal machine? If it isn't, then why do you need such an extreme form of defense?

Secondly, if you feel so threatened constantly, how do you think you would feel if you came to the UK (where I am)? Would you feel scared all the time due to the fact that you didn't have your gun? I would imagine that you would judging from some things I have read.
If you would not feel scared, why do you think that is? Are our crime levels so much different to yours, or are the types of crime different?

Finally, do you think you would like to live in a country like mine where guns are illegal?

Thanks to anybody that answers. I find it hard to imagine living in a society where guns are the norm, and will not pretend to understand the mindset of those that do. This is why I am asking these questions, I am not here to argue either way on this as I am in no position to judge, I just wish to learn.
 
Meadmaker said:
If this were one, isolated, incident, you would have a point. However, it isn't. Our society has more murders than other societies, per capita. Within the category of murder, our society has more incidents of homicidal gunmen shooting several people at a time than other societies.

Why? One incident you could write off as an anomaly, but the fact that if you live in the United States, you are more likely to die to a bullet than if you live in France. I think that means we are doing something different than the French.

What should we do differently? That's a more difficult question? If we could identify something as a cause, would the cost of changing it be worth it? Again, difficult question.
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I wonder if anyone knows the statistics?

Incidents of gunmen on the rampage killing indiscriminately in Britain, all I can remember is Hungerford and Dunblane. Hungerford must be over 25 years ago now, and even Dunblane was what, 1993? Both perpetrators were connected to gun clubs or the shooting fraternity in some way, I think.

The number of these incidents in the US seems a lot higher to me, but we have to take account of the per capita incidence, not the gross figure, so I just don't know.

However it does seem to me that a lot of it is down to opportunity and avaliability. Where gun control is tight, the vast majority of the weapons are in the hands of the bad guys, and the bad guys tend to use them to shoot other bad guys, or people they have a grudge against, or people they have mistaken for one of the above categories. What they don't tend to do is go on a "spree" of this nature. (Back to the restriction on paracetamol sales leading to a reduction in suicides. You still get the determined pre-planned suicides, but you eliminate most of the impulse attempts, which happen to be the majority.)

Personally, I dread to imagine what might have happened of a number of people had been armed in a situation like the one under discussion. The scope for misinterpretation, misunderstanding and panicky misdirected reaction seems enormous, and the whole thing could surely easily escalate into a chaotic free-for-all. The idea of the cool-headed, armed hero clinically taking out the bad guy seems to me to be a fantasy right out of Robert Heinlein.

However, I don't see much chance of the US gun enthusiasts ever understanding just how they're viewed in other societies. Barely civilised macho posturers with the worst case of testosterone poisoning on the planet, just for a start. Until these people start to get a glimmer of how others see them, I don't see how it's possible even to start applying the obvious lessons to be learned from the experiences of other countries.

Rolfe.

PS. Sat556. What she said. I know I get very creeped out and twitchy about all the guns around in the US, even asking a (very charming) policeman for directions was scary because all I was conscious of was this big gun on his belt. How do Merikans feel about walking around here?
 
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FarmallMTA said:
You are absolutely incorrect about weapons presence increasing violent behavior in people. In fact, if anything the opposite is true. By your logic, those with concealed carry permits should be wholesale mass murdering. In fact violent crime, including murder not only drops in states with concealed carry laws, but those who carry have criminal conviction rate a TINY fraction of their non-carry peers. www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html+concealed+carry+permit+homicide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Consider that argument demolished and desposed of. What next?
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Look, I am a gun rights supporter. There is no need to go off the deep end. Calm down and actually read what I said. You will see that your post did not "demolish" anything.
 
sat556 said:
To the people who own guns, I have been wondering about a couple of things here.
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Well, I am a bit too young, but I'll try.

Firstly, I'm seeing 'we need guns to defend ourselves' cropping up quite a bit. Now aside from amazing incidents like this school shooting, what exactly is it that you are defending yourselves against so frequently?
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Muggers, home invaders, burglars, rapists, and a variety of other criminals.

Is society in the USA so violent and criminal that a weapon like that is needed? Is the type of crime always something that requires you to pull out a lethal machine? If it isn't, then why do you need such an extreme form of defense?
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I see society everywhere as pretty dangerous. Though you might not want to take the word of someone like me. But I don't see a gun as some "extreme" form of self-defense. It is a potentially lethal weapon that will get people to stop.

Finally, do you think you would like to live in a country like mine where guns are illegal?
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Hmmm... Dunno. I would have to check the relative crime rates.

Thanks to anybody that answers. I find it hard to imagine living in a society where guns are the norm, and will not pretend to understand the mindset of those that do. This is why I am asking these questions, I am not here to argue either way on this as I am in no position to judge, I just wish to learn.
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Heh, I find it hard to imagine a society where guns are a rarity :) .
 
sat556 said:
Are our crime levels so much different to yours, or are the types of crime different?
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Off the top of my head, the UK has far higher burglary, robbery, and assault rates than the US. The US has a higher murder rate. But it can be tricky comparing rates from different countries, as the reporting and classifications may be different.

And a good portion of murders here in the US are from drug gangs fighting over turf, not from legal gun owners shooting each other over a traffic dispute. Hooray for the idiotic drug laws here...
 
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