• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

On Experiencing Jim Fetzer

Just out of curiosity, why do you believe the pictures ought to depict [the structural steel from the twin towers]?

Because structural steel is opaque, not transparent.

Because the perimeter steel was, for the most part, not piled up high. Rather it was thrown far and wide. The steel laying in the Westside highway, e.g. was just one layer deep.

Because there is photographic evidence that the basements were not full of debris, hence the importance of Dr. Wood's much maligned "Roadrunner" pictures. Also the parking structure under WTC6, which was undamaged.

Scientific method requires evidence. I just don't see evidence that the basements were completely full. For all of that steel and concrete to have not been dustified, the basements would have to be completely full, with essentially no air. Even if true, that then would present a serious problem for the 100 day fire hypothesis. No oxygen, no fire.
 
This site http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html claims: 185,101 tons of structural steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_site states: 181,400 tons of steel
This site http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...ce_from_Ground_Zero_at_the_World_Trade_Center has two estimates: 300,000 tons of scrap metal and 200,000 tons of steel
Nova http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/innovation.html says: 200,000 tons

Throwing out the high (300,000) and low (181,400) and taking the avg of the remaining estimates we have: 195,034 tons

Assuming that 195,034 tons is 20% of the total steel (per Ace's claim), then the total steel in the towers would be:
N x .20 = 195,034
=> N = 195,034/.20
=> N = 975,170 tons of steel in the towers
=> 487585 tons of steel in each tower.

Given that the Nova site states each tower weighed 500,000 tons and the total debris hauled away was somewhere on the order of 1.8 million tons (iirc) I do not see how the estimate of only 20% remaining can be supported.


Thanks for providing the relevant data, Arkan. Ace, however, will pirouette madly and leap into the exposition of new madness.

He said that 80% of the steel was missing. IT IS NOT TRUE THAT 80% OF THE STEEL WAS MISSING. NOTHING CLOSE TO 80% OF THE STEEL WAS MISSING.

Why can't he process that information? Why does it have no effect on his beliefs?
 
Because structural steel is opaque, not transparent.

Because the perimeter steel was, for the most part, not piled up high. Rather it was thrown far and wide. The steel laying in the Westside highway, e.g. was just one layer deep.

Because there is photographic evidence that the basements were not full of debris, hence the importance of Dr. Wood's much maligned "Roadrunner" pictures. Also the parking structure under WTC6, which was undamaged.

Scientific method requires evidence. I just don't see evidence that the basements were completely full. For all of that steel and concrete to have not been dustified, the basements would have to be completely full, with essentially no air. Even if true, that then would present a serious problem for the 100 day fire hypothesis. No oxygen, no fire.
You have provided no evidence showing that you are qualified to interpret photographic evidence. Neither have you provided corroborating evidence for the above claims. Your opinions have no value in this discussion.
 
Because structural steel is opaque, not transparent.


This is the single most accurate statement you've ever made on these forums. And, yet, it is very sad.



Because the perimeter steel was, for the most part, not piled up high. Rather it was thrown far and wide. The steel laying in the Westside highway, e.g. was just one layer deep.

Because there is photographic evidence that the basements were not full of debris, hence the importance of Dr. Wood's much maligned "Roadrunner" pictures. Also the parking structure under WTC6, which was undamaged.

Scientific method requires evidence. I just don't see evidence that the basements were completely full. For all of that steel and concrete to have not been dustified, the basements would have to be completely full, with essentially no air. Even if true, that then would present a serious problem for the 100 day fire hypothesis. No oxygen, no fire.


See post # 46.
 
So, your position is that the official reports are not merely wrong or suspect--they are fantastically wrong: They are wrong to a degree previously unencountered in the compilation of data. They are more wrong than the findings of a doctor who lists the birth weight of newborn human infant as one thousand four hundred pounds.

You further imply that not a single sane person has noticed this staggering anomaly.

Explain why these considerations bounce off your hide like balls of cotton.

Ron, it's simple. I'm saying that the official reports are lying. It would have been so easy. Where's the evidence for all of this steel that was supposedly shipped to China?
 
Ace, you must be a master at those "Guess How Many Jellybeans Are in the Jar" games!

I'm always WAY off on those things. And to think: that's just a few hundred jellybeans uniformly packed in a regularly-shaped jar...
 
Because structural steel is opaque, not transparent.

Because the perimeter steel was, for the most part, not piled up high. Rather it was thrown far and wide. The steel laying in the Westside highway, e.g. was just one layer deep.

Because there is photographic evidence that the basements were not full of debris, hence the importance of Dr. Wood's much maligned "Roadrunner" pictures. Also the parking structure under WTC6, which was undamaged.

Scientific method requires evidence. I just don't see evidence that the basements were completely full. For all of that steel and concrete to have not been dustified, the basements would have to be completely full, with essentially no air. Even if true, that then would present a serious problem for the 100 day fire hypothesis. No oxygen, no fire.

I wasn't asking about the basement, I was asking why the pictures ought to depict the amount of steel your require for your theory.

The reason I ask is that this finally gets to an area where I do have expertise. All people are terrible as guesstimating amounts of material from visual evidence. Much of the work I have done is calculating the amount of material used for grading in construction projects. This includes stockpiles of borrow material (dirt), and material removed from a site. If you just look at a stockpile and tell me how much dirt is there, you could be up to 10x off in your calculation. Looking at a pile of steel will give you no idea how much material is actually in the pile. Looking at a picture is even worse.

For example, if I were to provide estimates to a contractor based on photographic evidence, I would have to account for things such as lens distortion and projection errors. Have you done any of these corrections to your photos? Next, I would have to provide expansion and contraction factors for the material. For example, if I dig a hole with a volume of 1 cubic yard, the pile of dirt next to the hole will have a volume equal to or greater than the original hole due to the material's expansion factor. Do you have any idea what the compaction factor is for an occupied office building?

The only accurate way to calculate volumes of materials is to either do a material survey (I'm not sure if one was done at Ground Zero, but could do some research if it really mattered), or by adding up the hauling reports from the companies providing transportation of the material. This was done, and hauling reports are legally binding documents for contractural purposes.

A set of pictures with numbers assigned to them would never be accepted in any construction project for calculating material volumes.

ETA: Happy Birthday to ChipmunkStew as well!
 
Last edited:
TS, your answer, please? By what known process could 80% of the steel be turned to dust in a matter of seconds?

Despite the fact that you've been promoting this claim for months, it's okay to say that you have no idea how it could be true.

Remember how many times I had to ask you what explosives could produce your pyroclastic flow and concrete pulverization, before you said you had no idea? Let's not go through that again.

Please answer the question.
 
Ron, it's simple. I'm saying that the official reports are lying. It would have been so easy. Where's the evidence for all of this steel that was supposedly shipped to China?
We've stated our position very clearly for you Ace. You now have only three choices:
1) Produce new evidence
2) Present your current evidence in the format that was given to you (and would be most acceptable to the people here)
3) Go somewhere else with your evidence

We don't have to prove anything to you. You are the one making the claim. You are the one asking for us to accept a different explanation for events to which we have given provisional agreement. You are the one that has to do the work.
 
Ron, it's simple. I'm saying that the official reports are lying. It would have been so easy. Where's the evidence for all of this steel that was supposedly shipped to China?


If any of those reports contained lies, all of the bidders who competed for the Ground Zero cleanup job and lost would have had the contractor's butt on a platter, and would currently have a wonderful court case. Why don't you take your steel calculations to a company that provides construction cleaning services and recommend they file a complaint with the New York state contractor's licensing board? Submitting a construction report containing lies is a serious offense.

ETA: Bah, he's gone anyway and will probably never read this. What a waste.
 
Damn, and I was just at Bao Steel in China last month, I should have asked them. I could have been a hero in the truther community. People would be making black t-shirts with my picture on it! :D

As an aside, more steel went to India than to China. That is, steel dust. No, I mean tanks of steel vapor.
 
Last edited:
Because structural steel is opaque, not transparent.

Because the perimeter steel was, for the most part, not piled up high. Rather it was thrown far and wide. The steel laying in the Westside highway, e.g. was just one layer deep.

Because there is photographic evidence that the basements were not full of debris, hence the importance of Dr. Wood's much maligned "Roadrunner" pictures. Also the parking structure under WTC6, which was undamaged.

Scientific method requires evidence. I just don't see evidence that the basements were completely full. For all of that steel and concrete to have not been dustified, the basements would have to be completely full, with essentially no air. Even if true, that then would present a serious problem for the 100 day fire hypothesis. No oxygen, no fire.

How is steel "dustified"?
Do you have any sensible physical process, apart from long term rusting, for this to occur?
Am I missing something here?
What would produce the "dustification" of steel?
 
How is steel "dustified"?
Do you have any sensible physical process, apart from long term rusting, for this to occur?
Am I missing something here?
What would produce the "dustification" of steel?
This is a good question as for the steel to no longer be in large chunks it must either be broken down at the molecular level, or fractured in to small enough pieces. Both of these process would require and produce large amounts of energy. For those inclined the values could be calculated.
 
I'm no scientist, but from my elementary understanding of physics, the "mushroom" cloud would simply be the result of the top of the building creating a vacuum above it as it fell, and the smoke and dust from the fires simply "swooped" down to fill the void.
 
My DVD collection of "Remington Steele" episodes has been sitting idle in a box for about 2 years...and they're filthy. That's the ONLY dustified Steele that I'm aware of. Then again, I'm not a scientist...just a guy with poor taste in television shows.
 
If any of those reports contained lies, all of the bidders who competed for the Ground Zero cleanup job and lost would have had the contractor's butt on a platter, and would currently have a wonderful court case. Why don't you take your steel calculations to a company that provides construction cleaning services and recommend they file a complaint with the New York state contractor's licensing board? Submitting a construction report containing lies is a serious offense.

ETA: Bah, he's gone anyway and will probably never read this. What a waste.


Hokulele, I can provide you with a very useful shortcut that addresses all of your rational suggestions:

Whatever your complaint--whoever you take it to--HE'S IN ON IT! There is no way out. No redress is possible. Every imaginable loophole has been noticed and closed.
 

Back
Top Bottom