432 shows harmony of Sun, Moon, Earth Design

Good, now we are on Egyptian stuff, what does this have to do with 14,000 year old line drawing..............

Paul

:) :) :)

From a poor picture.............. that has been greatly read into..........
 
Psiload said:
So, what's your alternative theory? Fleets of helicopters?
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Hey, what's all these folks hanging around for? This was supposed to be a private room a la King's Chamber. The last person out was to drop the granite plugs down the shaft or something to that effect. :)

Fleets of helicopters? No, not in Egypt. It had to be before that somewhere like Atlantis, or another planet, who knows. Egypt had some remnants of advanced prehistoric technology, which had allowed the temples to facilitate the pyramid building, or something like that. No one was pushing this technology on the world like Henry Ford would. I hate to speculate too wildly without a solid foundation. It is much sounder to stay with the sure thing - directly identifiable deliberate order in some prehistoric and ancient works of graphical nature. There is the theory, the smoke, which implies fire.
 
Hokulele said:
OK, since Jiri has made it clear that he refuses to understand why his numbers are bogus, it is time to get to the final act so we can get this whole thing over with.

The Atlanteans did it. You got it, Jiri really just wants to talk about Atlantis and has been setting everyone up for it all along.
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Jiri said:
No, not in Egypt. It had to be before that somewhere like Atlantis, or another planet, who knows. Egypt had some remnants of advanced prehistoric technology, which had allowed the temples to facilitate the pyramid building, or something like that. No one was pushing this technology on the world like Henry Ford would.
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Damn, Hokulele appears to have called it.
 
Jiri said:
The Egyptian temple had a dual character. It combined religion with science, obviously. At the same time it was an educational institution, widely sought after by students from Greece, and elsewhere. Look at Pythagoras, Solon, Plato, as some of the better known names - all got their higher education un Egypt. Dispensing education like that really paints Egypt in a progressive, and modern light. I could imagine that there might have been workshops, practically labs near the temples. You never know what comes out of a lab. Anyway, it is thought that the temples held secret knowledge. If we found out today what it was, would we be in a bit of shock? The Abydos Helicopter dossier, for instance ..



The resulting bottlenecks, however let through one camel at a time :) Petrie describes I think the drill core #7, as having grooves, which showed an incredible rate of descent per rotation. Dunn found a whole bunch of similar fascinating examples. He noticed that some drilling bore deeper into the quartz crystals than the softer elements. That's what happens in ultrasound drilling, he says. Since this assertion is highly verifiable, I don't see why he would make it up. What hand tool would produce similar marks?

On the other hand, don't trust the Egyptologists when they allege that they have the pyramid building pretty well solved. They don't. The amount of work, which needs to be done is staggering, and working with stone is a major part of it all, but not all. The Egyptologists had woven a nice yarn altogether. Some parts of it are just hilarious illusions like the 'collapse theory" on the Meidum pyramid by Snefferu.



Yes, you put that very aptly 'moving past earlier work', degrading from empirical to highly speculative. Yeah, very iffy, and flighty, I know, but not dishonest. The generator certainly beats the "pyramid was a giant waterpump" theory.:cool:
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They had drills, how does that mean an increased level of accuracy beyond what should be expected from archaeological finds, which is what you said would have been required.

I just don't even know where to begin, you attempt to discredit Egyptologists by siting some woo woo author who thinks the pyramids were a generator? you talk about a helicopter??? you speak about ultrasonic drilling, from a people without any evidence of devices that could do that?? You ask why someone would make it up, but what other way would someone say it is there without any evidence?

Any you "don't trust" Egyptoligists who think they know how the pyramids were made? People who have studied this and been to Egypt and seen the pyramids, and who don't just publish bunk on some webpage about generator technology that is nowhere to be found?

And how about this theory concerning the pyramids===== They were ancient mortuary sites. That's it.

As for not believing the colapse and the fact that pyramids were no longer a part of the culture: It's called the First Intermediate Period.
 
Jiri said:
No, the later pyramids just got smaller, and much shoddier. There is a question what was built in Egyptian prehistory. How old are the several levels of blocks exceeding 60 tons in weight and more in Chephren's pyramid? What about the core of the Meidum pyramid? It looks finished. Was it once the outside of a steep tall tower? When was it built? What about other structures in Egypt, which look to be much older than the OK era?
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My point, as one can see in:

Southall, Aiden. "The Segmentary State in Africa and Asia." Comparative Studies in Society and History 30 (1988): 52-82.

Strudwick, Nigel. The Administration of Egypt in the Old Kingdoml the Highest Titles and Their Holders. London: KPI Limited, 1985.

Trigger, Bruce G. Early Civilizations : Ancient Egypt in Context. Cairo, Egypt: American University in Cairo Press, 1993.

Trigger, Bruce G., et al. Ancient Egypt : A Social History. Cambridge Cambridgeshire ; New York: Cambridge University Press, 1983.

Roth, Anne Macy. "The Practical Economics of Tomb-Building in the Old Kingdom: A Visit to the Necropolis in a Carrying Chair." In For His Ka: Studies Offered in Memory of Klaus Baer, ed. David P. Silverman, 227-240. Chicago, Illinois: The Oriental Institute of Chicago, 1994.

Hikade, Thomas. "Urban Development at Hierakonpolis and the Stone Industry of Square 10n5w." In Egypt at Its Origins: Studies in Memory of Barbara Adams: Proceedings of International Conference "Origin of the State. Predynastic and Early Dynastic Egypt", Krakow, 28th August- 1st September 2002, ed. R. F. Friedman S. Hendrickx, K.M. Cialowicz, and M. Chlodnicki. Leuven: Peeters Publishers & Department of Oriental Studies, 2004.

David, A. R. The Pyramid Builders of Ancient Egypt: A Modern Investigation of the Pharaoh's Workforce. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1986.

Beckerath, J.V. "The Date of the End of the Old Kingdom of Egypt." Journal of Near Eastern Studies 21, no. 2 (1962): 140-147.

Bierbrier, Morris. The Tomb-Builders of the Pharaohs. London: British Museum Publications, 1982.

The building of pyramids ended with the Old Kingdom. As for it begining before the Old Kingdom, at best you have early pyramid structures emerging Djoser in 2660 BCE. (See Bierbrier. 10).


You lose me there. Do you know how many people were alive at that time in the world? How many in Egypt? Check the estimates, it might be a bit of a shock to you how few people had shared the planet 5,000 years ago.
The logistics demands themselves are too much. People tend to underestimate logistics. Not the best example, but take Goering's promise to supply the encircled army at Staligrad by air. He could do it on some days, but a lot of things went wrong on other days, and doing it day after day was different than just doing it for a short time.
Similarly, the Egyptians had to plan for a fleet of ships just to ferry in the Lebanese cedar. They had to ensure a constant flow of stone blocks. They had to take care of sanitation, disease outbreaks, adverse weather would stop all the work, too. Some aspects of the pyramid construction aren't figured out at all, even if Arnold Dieter thinks otherwise. .
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The reason that their are complex and large scale architecture projects like the pyramids emerging only with the begining of complex socieites, is that you have large scale intensive farming. This allows for the population to spend large parts of the year working on other projects, as the fields do not need constant attention of the entire work force all year long. See:
Adams, Robert McC. The Evolution of Urban Society. Chicago, Illinoise: Aldine, 1966.

Additionally, there are specific areas that have been excavated which are homes to camps of workers for the pyramids.

You still seek to show that the Egyptians had special tools that are beyond what Egyptologists have uncovered. However, the tools that are known have been found in:
Texts
Illustrations
Their actual physical forms
Dioramas depiction life in Egypt (showing every day life and how things were done).

None of this has shown the tools you expect.

On top of this Egypt's position as a territorial state kept it from developing technology even on par with city states like those in Mess. So there is no reason to expect such technology there. (See Trigger)
 
Jiri, I have to ask: where was Atlantis? Why is there no archeological or geographic evidence of its existence?
 
Could I request Atlantis discussions, if they are to take place, be moved to their own thread? It's hard enough keeping track of what the subject du jour is, such a controversial (wooishly speaking) subject as Atlantis would be the death of this thread (no, it's not dead already, I think I've seen it twitch!).
 
Oualawouzou said:
Could I request Atlantis discussions, if they are to take place, be moved to their own thread? It's hard enough keeping track of what the subject du jour is, such a controversial (wooishly speaking) subject as Atlantis would be the death of this thread (no, it's not dead already, I think I've seen it twitch!).
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I went to Atlantis once. Of course, it was just a shore excursion from a cruise, so we only got to see the beach and their aquarium, but it was fun. I'd imagine that it would be a nice place to spend a few days on vacation. They've got a water slide and casino and everything.

It's on Paradise Island, in the Bahamas.

Oh wait, we're talking about woo-woo Atlantis. My mistake.

What about Mu? Lemuria? Space aliens? Ancient astronauts? Care to weigh in, Jiri?
 
JonnyFive said:
I went to Atlantis once. Of course, it was just a shore excursion from a cruise, so we only got to see the beach and their aquarium, but it was fun. I'd imagine that it would be a nice place to spend a few days on vacation. They've got a water slide and casino and everything.

It's on Paradise Island, in the Bahamas.

Oh wait, we're talking about woo-woo Atlantis. My mistake.

What about Mu? Lemuria? Space aliens? Ancient astronauts? Care to weigh in, Jiri?
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I've got to admit that at one point I was very interested in those woo things and thought there was a possibility for their existance. That was part of the reason I started studying/was interested in religion. But somwhere along the line I realized they were just woo.
 
ReligionStudent said:
I've got to admit that at one point I was very interested in those woo things and thought there was a possibility for their existance. That was part of the reason I started studying/was interested in religion. But somwhere along the line I realized they were just woo.
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You know, there is so much in the real universe to study, more then you could ever know, so there is really no need for woo-woo. But study is the word that most people just don't have time for, and woo-woo needs no study at all and you can make it up as you go along, just look at the idea behind this thread. :rolleyes:

Paul

:) :) :)
 
JonnyFive said:
No, because he provided proofs for what he claimed, and detailed explanations for how he came to his conclusions that other mathematicians could follow, check, and validate.
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Well, I'm no Einstein, but those things you mention above exist in this case just the same. It is you, who dismisses them irrationally. Besides, you missed the meaning of what I clearly said about Einstein.

Occult doesn't necessarily imply religion. It implies that something is secret or magical. You're claiming (or appear to be claiming) that the numbers have a special meaning to them (beyond, say, pi being related to the area or circumference of a circle, and beyond their standard mathematical relationships).
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Oh yeah? How so, give an example, for I am unaware of showing you anything else but standard number relationships.

Belittling me will not make your theories any more true, or convince anyone here that they are true.
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Someone will be belittled here, you, or the Stone-Age mathematicians. Being obstinately blind to their logic makes you seem incapable of understanding it. It is just a natural consequence of what you do.

No, I ask you to provide evidence that you have measured accurately, and that you have in fact found something significant, and you find this objectionable for some reason.
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Highly objectionable for you already got more evidence than you can handle.

You haven't even bothered to try to validate this against the original piece. So, why exactly should I believe you?
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Why was I steadfastly ignored by the museum? Not even a ranking French diplomat could make Monsieur Henry de Lumley give me a promised reply.. Why don't you try on my behalf? Where is your intellectual curiosity, and I'm sorry to say, integrity? Would you recommend that I be given access to the vaults with the La Marche materials? No, you would not, you would warn the museum against letting an 'obvious cracpot' across its porch.

You don't need to talk to me at all. But be aware that so far you haven't convinced a single person here you're right. They have the same concerns that I do with your theories and methodology, and they ask for the same things.
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I did not expect anything else. You see, our estimations are mutual. You think I am a nut, and I think the same of you and everybody on your side. It's not that I think you to be obtuse, so help me, you are just not willing to pay attention to my factual research observations because of your mental blocks.
 
Jiri said:
Why was I steadfastly ignored by the museum? Not even a ranking French diplomat could make Monsieur Henry de Lumley give me a promised reply.. Why don't you try on my behalf? Where is your intellectual curiosity, and I'm sorry to say, integrity? Would you recommend that I be given access to the vaults with the La Marche materials? No, you would not, you would warn the museum against letting an 'obvious cracpot' across its porch.
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Isn't it amazing that museums will give some people access but not others? I wonder how they make that determination? Hmmmm.
 
Psiload said:
The only thing I find shocking, is that you, an adult, would actually entertain the notion that the ancient Egyptians invented the helicopter.

Jiri... that's just silly.
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psiload, what's silly is jumping to conclusions the way you do. After all I never said anything like that. :eye-poppi
 
I protest the hijacking of this thread!

DJJ was in the process of explaining how "432 shows harmony of Sun, Moon, Earth Design".

Now I'll never find out. Sniff.
 
ReligionStudent said:
My point, as one can see in:

Southall, Aiden. "The Segmentary State in Africa and Asia." Comparative Studies in Society and History 30 (1988): 52-82.

Strudwick, Nigel. The Administration of Egypt in the Old Kingdoml the Highest Titles and Their Holders. London: KPI Limited, 1985.

Trigger, Bruce G. Early Civilizations : Ancient Egypt in Context. Cairo, Egypt: American University in Cairo Press, 1993.

Trigger, Bruce G., et al. Ancient Egypt : A Social History. Cambridge Cambridgeshire ; New York: Cambridge University Press, 1983.

Roth, Anne Macy. "The Practical Economics of Tomb-Building in the Old Kingdom: A Visit to the Necropolis in a Carrying Chair." In For His Ka: Studies Offered in Memory of Klaus Baer, ed. David P. Silverman, 227-240. Chicago, Illinois: The Oriental Institute of Chicago, 1994.

Hikade, Thomas. "Urban Development at Hierakonpolis and the Stone Industry of Square 10n5w." In Egypt at Its Origins: Studies in Memory of Barbara Adams: Proceedings of International Conference "Origin of the State. Predynastic and Early Dynastic Egypt", Krakow, 28th August- 1st September 2002, ed. R. F. Friedman S. Hendrickx, K.M. Cialowicz, and M. Chlodnicki. Leuven: Peeters Publishers & Department of Oriental Studies, 2004.

David, A. R. The Pyramid Builders of Ancient Egypt: A Modern Investigation of the Pharaoh's Workforce. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1986.

Beckerath, J.V. "The Date of the End of the Old Kingdom of Egypt." Journal of Near Eastern Studies 21, no. 2 (1962): 140-147.

Bierbrier, Morris. The Tomb-Builders of the Pharaohs. London: British Museum Publications, 1982.

The building of pyramids ended with the Old Kingdom. As for it begining before the Old Kingdom, at best you have early pyramid structures emerging Djoser in 2660 BCE. (See Bierbrier. 10).

Despite your extensive references, I must remark that you just don't see the big picture :) Although we are talking pyramids, the Sphinx plays a role, as do several temples, as all are manifestly dating from at least some millenia into the pluvial period, let's say some 10,000 years ago. You also let my remarks on the Snefru, and Meidum pyramids pass you by, although they were relevant.


The reason that their are complex and large scale architecture projects like the pyramids emerging only with the begining of complex socieites, is that you have large scale intensive farming. This allows for the population to spend large parts of the year working on other projects, as the fields do not need constant attention of the entire work force all year long. See:
Adams, Robert McC. The Evolution of Urban Society. Chicago, Illinoise: Aldine, 1966.
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In that case, what you call hunter-gatherer societies had the most leasure time available, especially if they were more gatherers than hunters. Rather than waste time on building pyramids they could tinker and invent. They had up to 200,000 years to do that since such is the dating of the oldest fossils of physiologically true Sapiens Sapient.

Additionally, there are specific areas that have been excavated which are homes to camps of workers for the pyramids.
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They could have been working anywhere in the vicinity. What you say is no final proof of anything. even if they too had worked on the Pyramid.

You still seek to show that the Egyptians had special tools that are beyond what Egyptologists have uncovered. However, the tools that are known have been found in:
Texts
Illustrations
Their actual physical forms
Dioramas depiction life in Egypt (showing every day life and how things were done).
Click to expand...


Show me one picture of them building a big pyramid using those tools. You can't, there are zero such pictures.

None of this has shown the tools you expect.
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Indeed, you need much better tools to build a big pyramid. But, the Egyptologists will not even allow the builders use of pulleys.

On top of this Egypt's position as a territorial state kept it from developing technology even on par with city states like those in Mess. So there is no reason to expect such technology there. (See Trigger)
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Egypt had its temples. Their knowledge was not handed out to the masses.
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Jiri said:
In that case, what you call hunter-gatherer societies had the most leasure time available, especially if they were more gatherers than hunters. Rather than waste time on building pyramids they could tinker and invent. They had up to 200,000 years to do that since such is the dating of the oldest fossils of physiologically true Sapiens Sapient.
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Ummm, nope. Hunter-gatherers spend the majority of their time collecting food to eat, because it isn't located in one place they have to move around constantly searching for food. In other words, they were nomadic. This also means that they can't develop any technology which involves large structures or machines, since they can't caryy those with them. It isn't until Homo Sapiens started to develop agriculture and ceased being nomadic that they could begin to really develop technology, because they then had more spare time, and weren't constantly on the move.

Show me one picture of them building a big pyramid using those tools. You can't, there are zero such pictures.
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Just as there are zero pictures of any other tools. Which by your intimated argument means those tools didn't exist. Hoist by your own petard?

Indeed, you need much better tools to build a big pyramid. But, the Egyptologists will not even allow the builders use of pulleys.
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Because no evidence exists that they had pulleys. However, experimental archeologists are finding interesting and inventive ways to reproduce Egyptian structures using only the technology that was known to be available at the time. The trouble for modern humans is that we have the tools to do this easily, which means that it's very hard for us to see how it could be done with only basic tools. If anything, I think you are the one who gives these people too little credit. They were able to build incredibly complex, massive structure to quite exacting standards with only fairly basic tools, and we modern humans haven't worked out exactly how they did it. To me that's seriously impressive.

But you appear to believe that they required tools passed down to them from some prehistoric superculture, or aliens, which is to completely remove the credit from the egyptian builders and pass it off to myth.
 
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jond said:
Jiri, I have to ask: where was Atlantis? Why is there no archeological or geographic evidence of its existence?
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La Marche and Nazca do give evidence of advanced ancient science. Cyclopean architecture also points materially to an unknown prehistoric civilisation. Tihuanaco gives you Stone-Age architecture, and so does the Sphinx, the two temples nearby Sphinx, Osireion, etc. Did we forget about the Yonaguni structures?
http://www.morien-institute.org/imk9.html#caveout
You get the model planes, especially the golden ones from South America. You have the Abydos Helicopter code.
.
Plato places Atlantis between Europe and the Americas, on a Cuba sized island, somewhere, but you already knew that
 
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