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20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

Ah. That I agree with. He clearly had mental health issues (understatement, I realize).

As you can tell, though, I'm just struggling with what we should or what we can do next time. What do we do with the next Cho?

We can't force mental health care on him unless (as has been pointed out) he's a demonstrable threat to himself or others. He hasn't committed a crime YET. What can we do?

I think that is the big problem. There's nothing we can do. It's going to happen again, especially with someone who can plan things out like this creep to keep security off his back long enough to kill so many people. The bomb threats and the first murders to keep them all busy was strangely very intelligent although completely sickeningly so.

The problem with freedom is that it entails allowing really sick people to do really sick things (no, I don't mean the freedom to kill college kids) and some really sick people take things to this sort of extreme with the freedoms we all enjoy.
 

Yes.

My argument is easy to understand and obvious.

So was mine. Being easy to understand doesn't mean the argument is right.

Cops have special training,

Ok, so there will be more nuts with special training. Why is that good?

are hand picked so to speak.

No they aren't. Anyone without a criminal record can become a cop.

Get real. And dont take it personal.

Where is the irony meter when you need one? I'm simply using your stupid argument against you. Why are you ok with nuts as cops with guns, but not ok with nuts with guns?


In fact, this "nut" argument can be used for anything.

More cars=more nuts with cars=get rid of cars.

More people in the military=more nuts in the military=get rid of military

More BB guns=more nuts with BB guns=get rid of BB guns

More steak knives=more nuts with steak knives=get rid of steak knives

More freedom=more nuts with freedom=get rid of freedom
 
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In a word (or six), force mental health care on him. The warning signs were there. That should at least earn an evalutaion. If he's just a strange kid, fine, we apologise for the inconvenience.

Or we can just live with another one every coupla years. At least they tend to do us the courtesy of keeping their recidivism rate low.

As far as I know, the only way to force mental health care is to hospitalize. And to do so, he must be a demonstrable threat to himself or others.

That is the current rule. To extend it to others would be troublesome (lead to over-crowding, etc.). But would it be necessary?

Don't know.
 
I'm not sure you can force mental health care on someone. I suppose you could do, forced medication, but medication is usually just part of the equation. And this gentleman was obviously very, very disturbed. I think it's hard to treat someone who has no desire to feel better in the first place.

Not to unnessesarily drag his parents into this, but I wonder what his homelife was like. I wonder what his like was like before he moved to the united states. All that anger must have come from somewhere; right? Or maybe he was born crazy, I think that happens sometimes.

The world would be a scary place if you could. Who decides how "strange" someone needs to be to force mental healthcare on them and when does it turn in to re-education?
 
The world would be a scary place if you could. Who decides how "strange" someone needs to be to force mental healthcare on them and when does it turn in to re-education?

Ummm... You can. It is done on a regular basis every day here in the US.
 
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What evidence would be sufficient to do so? You're talking about physically restraining him (assuming that he wouldn't want to do this and would try to up & leave) and then subjecting him to an involuntary evaluation. Not small things.

Having said that, I hear you in feeling a bit of a "better safe than sorry" attitude about this.
[shrug] I'm just giving the options. I don't necessarily endorse the forcing of psych evals on every strange person who wanders in. But if not that, we just live with the occasional nutball on a rampage.
 
Society's always to blame. Let's go arrest them instead.
I blame Bush.
I'll add it to the list, along mental health care issues.

So far we have the blame going to
  • abortion (parent of a Columbine victim)
  • the ban on school prayer (multiple sites)
  • gun control
  • no gun control
  • homosexuals (Phelps' usual rant)
  • evil (for whatever reason God doesn't interfere)
  • God (for reasons unknown, not punishment as claimed by Phelps, et al., and because obviously he controls these things)
  • the university for not warning people and/or closing the campus down
  • the police for not assuming a murder in a dorm meant a madman was possibly on his way to a shooting rampage
  • Bush
  • society
  • lack of mental health care for various reasons (can't force it on someone, not available, no one took action to help shooter get it)

Did I leave anything/one out?

Oh yeah, the shooter.
 
Where is the irony meter when you need one? I'm simply using your stupid argument against you.

I was not aware of your avatar, nor the fact that you live in Texas. My bad. Now, when you finish your ad hominem and understand about arguments you will get it. Have a nice day sir.
 
Ooh, my favorite; I caught someone using it in the castration thread!

Problem is, this isn't an example. The "perfect solution" fallacy assumes that there is a perfect solution to a problem, and that anything short of that solution must therefore be rejected.

The problem is, the "no guns on campus" rule is not only not a perfect solution to a problem; it is a disastrous failure. It didn't fail in some subordinate purpose; it utterly failed in its primary ones: to keep guns off campus, and to make everyone safe. It did neither. It wasn't just imperfect; it was a catastrophic failure.

Ergo, this is not an example of the "perfect solution" fallacy.
 
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I spent a great deal of last night and this morning muttering at the talking heads on my TV:

The question on every parent's mind right now surely must be: Is my child safe?

And I yelled back at the TV, "NO!"

They never have been "safe," since the moment they were born! What do you mean, "safe?" Protected from all harm? Nope. Most harm? Probably not. Some harm? Maybe. Maybe not. No, your kids are not safe. They can be safer, but living always comes with the risk of dying. Always.

Asking this question implies safety not only exists, but is good for everyone. Who says? What did you ever learn from being safe? It's creating a nation of people who think they can and should have this mythical safety. Worse, it enables people to think they can be made safe, and nothing else about their lives has to change.

Think about that. "What is the government doing to make us safe?" Why would you want your government to take that responsibility for you on the individual level? What are YOU doing to make yourself safer? is the much better question, isn't it? And just how safe do you want to be? How much are you willing to give up (because you will have to give things up) in order to be safe?

What can we do to make sure this never happens again?

NOTHING!

There is no practical way to ensure bad things won't happen. There are no ways to make sure no one ever takes another gun or other weapon and kills/injures another group of people.

I'm not saying nothing should be done. I'm not saying steps shouldn't be taken. I'm saying it is a bad thing to lead people to believe they can have and should want things they can't and shouldn't. It seems to make them focus on the wrong things.

I think Beeps is suggesting (correct me if I'm wrong) that an armed society is a polite society. Is that essentially it?

That may be true. I can't say for certain what people would be like if they all lived as if everyone might have a gun. But since it's hard to tell right now who might be armed and who isn't, why aren't we already living under that assumption? Isn't it already true, at least for pratical purposes?

I think we don't live that way now because we can't really live that way. It sounds good, looks good on paper, maybe, but I know I can't live in the state of heightened tension that assumption would create in me. I can't wonder if my careless attempt at humor is going to get me shot; if my failure to use my turn signal is going to get me shot; if I'm going to be the innocent, bleeding bystander who died while two other armed people squared off in the street, or while some well-meaning armed moron tried to shoot a fleeing criminal.

I can't believe more guns are the answer. I can't believe fewer guns are the answer. I can't believe the guns figure much into the answer at all.

Truth to tell, I don't think there is an answer to the "how can we be safe?" question. You know what a cry for greater safety implies to me? A desire to be protected from life, to escape its harsh realities and live encased in cotton wool. Someone in another thread (forgive me for forgetting whom) posted some lyrics from a Nickelback song, and part of it went:

"If everyone cared and nobody cried
If everyone loved and nobody lied
If everyone shared and swallowed their pride
Then we'd see the day, when nobody died."

And someone else said in response, "That's not living," or something close. I think I agree.

I don't know what "the answer" is. I strongly suspect there isn't one. But I don't think it's about the guns. I think part of it might be about living alongside your neighbor as if he's a real person who matters to you, and not just the annoying guy who waters his yard too often and lets his dog bark too much.

But I also strongly suspect that chasing this elusive "safety" is the wrong focus. It frustrates me, so I just wanted to say all this.
 
Ummm... You can. It is done on a regular basis every day here in the US.

There is a difference between someone with obvious issues of not being able to care for themselves, substance abuse, destructive behavior, and someone acting "strange". You cannot force someone like Cho to be treated for mental illness, as far as I know, until he commits an illegal act.
 
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In fact, this "nut" argument can be used for anything.

More cars=more nuts with cars=get rid of cars.

More people in the military=more nuts in the military=get rid of military

More BB guns=more nuts with BB guns=get rid of BB guns

More steak knives=more nuts with steak knives=get rid of steak knives

More freedom=more nuts with freedom=get rid of freedom
I can't believe I'm saying this, but...

:clap:
 
Excellent point. Why do we have to find something besides the person who committed this atrocity to blame?

Because if there are reasons in outside of the person itself that contributed to the tragedy, perhaps if we discover those reasons and, moreover, find a way to adjust them, perhaps this type of situation can be avoided in the future.

Basically, if this type of incident requires some combination of A + B + C +D, then, while it is difficult to fix the wiring of the perp alone, if you can reasonably find ways to address B, C, and D, perhaps you can keep the combination of them below the breaking point.
 
There is a difference between someone with obvious issues of not being able to care for themselves, substance abuse, destructive behavior, and someone acting "strange". You cannot force someone like Cho to be treated for mental illness, as far as I know, until he commits an illegal act.

Ah, I thought you meant in general. Yes, you're quite right. Teachers could show "concern" but that is about it.
 
Excellent point. Why do we have to find something besides the person who committed this atrocity to blame?

Hmmm... while in general I'd agree. However, in this case mental disorders are clearly an issue. As such, I cannot hold Cho entirely responsible.
 

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