20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

[shanek]

I’m originally from Costa Rica, a country with non-existent gun-control enforcement. In short, everyone’s packing. And guess what? We are now ahead of the United States in gun murders per capita:

This is something weird that happens to skeptics in gun control threads: they seem to forget all about the correlation/causation fallacy.

Nothing against the country of Costa Rica, but despite the fact that their name means "The Rich Coast," most people there are in a lower socioeconomic situation than most Americans. In America, most of the crime is committed by people in low socioeconomic situations. That may have something to do with it.

In America, we're waging an insane War on Drugs. A large amount of the murders in the US are drug-related as a result. The drug trade also hits the Central American countries pretty badly, so this may account as well.

Also, Costa Rica has a lower crime rate than its Central American neighbors. Wouldn't it be more valid to make that comparison, as there are fewer differences between those countries?

 

[Thabiguy]

I wonder how many people here would still have their same opinions on gun control if they were put in the same situation as the kids during that shooting....If they saw their classmates being killed around them and bullets spraying everywhere, would they still in their minds think "Well I still support gun control banning people from carrying their weapons on campus even though that law has seemed to do nothing to stop this man from bringing one and it will not deter real criminals." or would they think "I am completely helpless! I have no means to defend myself and the law banning guns on campuses is COMPLETELY POINTLESS except for leaving me utterly defenseless!" Curious isn't it...I know one thing for sure though, anyone who was put in that situation would be MORE than happy to have had a gun on them.

You are committing the logical fallacy of misleading vividness. You ignore the extreme rarity of the situation. There are about 17.5 million U.S. university students. Of these, 32 were killed. Last comparable university massacre occurred 15 years ago, when 2 people were killed. - You are only considering the safety of a negligible fraction of students. For all the other millions and millions of students, in all those other years, handguns would not only be, to borrow your expression, "completely pointless", but would be there to cause deaths by accidents and passion crimes. If proportional to general U.S. population, among 17.5 million students we might expect 22 deaths by accidental firearm discharge and 691 deaths by firearm homicide every year.

 

[Thitical Crinker]

Then there is a problem with your gun laws.

I don't think it is the gun laws that are the problem in this case. I think if someone was strolling down Main st. with a .44 magnum strapped to his hip in plain view, the police would receive so many calls that they would be forced to take action.

 

[Meadmaker]

I asked a question earlier, and I wonder if anyone has an answer. (Not saying anyone is dodging mind you, just that the thread has a lot of traffic and it's easy to overlook a question.)

Has there ever been an incident in which someone committed one murder, and it appeared he would commit another, but he was prevented from doing so when a private citizen with a firearm incapacititated the murderer?

 

[Mephisto]

I blame Charlton Heston.

But Moses had about as much to do with this tragedy as the Pharoah did.

People are quick to blame what they consider lax gun laws for massacres like this, but as you pointed out (at least I think it was you), Washington D.C. has the most stringent gun laws in the country and STILL has more than it's share of gun-related crime.

It's apparent that we also can't depend on legal gun owners to come to the rescue as they are few and far between (and most don't carry their weapons with them). I think that methods to secure all campuses (and maybe even all public buildings) from rampant violence would be more appropriate. Solid, windowless metal doors that can be locked from the inside, a claxon system to warn students (or the general public) that such an event is underway, and perhap emergency radio channels for communications with key personnel in all buildings along with an innocuous duress code would cue authorities to the exact locations of a suspect, along with keeping the public out of harm's way.

I was particularly distressed at this quote from the link:

Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on semi-automatic weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress.

This ban didn't cover semi-automatic handguns, only "military-style" assault rifles with large capacity magazines, so the relaxation of this law wouldn't have had an effect on this incident. The term "semi-automatic" is also a frequent target by those who aren't familiar with firearms and they are usually perceived as machine guns, which is far from the truth. Many sporting arms are also semi-automatic yet are rarely used in instances like this.

Cho Seung-Hui was outgunned by nearly every law enforcement officer on the scene, but the mass confusion and resultant chaos didn't allow them to confront him effectively. The actions of a few of the students who remained clear-headed enough to barricade the doors to the classrooms saved numerous lives, but it's becoming more clear that a standardized contingency plan for these events is becoming a necessity.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Are rednecks considered colored people?

Hmmmm...that needs to be its own thread!

 

[Mephisto]

I asked a question earlier, and I wonder if anyone has an answer. (Not saying anyone is dodging mind you, just that the thread has a lot of traffic and it's easy to overlook a question.)

Has there ever been an incident in which someone committed one murder, and it appeared he would commit another, but he was prevented from doing so when a private citizen with a firearm incapacititated the murderer?

There was an incident in Albuquerque NM where a citizen with a concealed-carry permit shot and killed a man who accosted a woman in a Wal-Mart parking lot with a knife in an apparent kidnapping attempt. It was later determined that the man was responsible for several rape/assaults in the area. It's also difficult (as you might imagine) to find a non-biased source for most of these stories, but it did run in Albuquerque newspapers approximately a little over a year ago.

Also, I'm currently watching a law-enforcement official on CNN criticising the police response ourside the engineering building. He was discussing the cell phone video taken by a student and pointing out that every single one of the police officers in the video possessed a "long-arm" (assault rifle) yet they remained stationary while multiple shots were being fired inside. He's claiming that the four officers should have been attempting to secure entry into the building instead of covering the windows and I tend to agree with his assessment.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Has there ever been an incident in which someone committed one murder, and it appeared he would commit another, but he was prevented from doing so when a private citizen with a firearm incapacititated the murderer?

Most likely this only happened in the movies. And Libertopia.

 

[Katana]

Also, I'm currently watching a law-enforcement official on CNN criticising the police response ourside the engineering building. He was discussing the cell phone video taken by a student and pointing out that every single one of the police officers in the video possessed a "long-arm" (assault rifle) yet they remained stationary while multiple shots were being fired inside. He's claiming that the four officers should have been attempting to secure entry into the building instead of covering the windows and I tend to agree with his assessment.

I would think that other officers would have been assigned to that task.

 

[Pardalis]

The actions of a few of the students who remained clear-headed enough to barricade the doors to the classrooms saved numerous lives, but it's becoming more clear that a standardized contingency plan for these events is becoming a necessity.

Yes, exactly. Like fire and earthquake drills, and let the authorities take care of taking the murderer down.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The man of the hour:

 

[Mephisto]

I would think that other officers would have been assigned to that task.

You may be right, but these officers were adequately armed, they were already on the scene. I would find it difficult to simply secure my own position outside the building while imaging the carnage going on inside.

Besides, nearly every law enforcement official in the area was on the scene, precious moments were wasted while these four policemen (who apparently KNEW the gunman was inside) waited for the officers assigned to the task.

 

[Pardalis]

Besides, nearly every law enforcement official in the area was on the scene, precious moments were wasted while these four policemen (who apparently KNEW the gunman was inside) waited for the officers assigned to the task.

Take the last Montréal shooting for example.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/04/16/canada.shootings.ap/index.html

The police went in right away, and took down the gunman pretty quickly.

 

[Mephisto]

Yes, exactly. Like fire and earthquake drills, and let the authorities take care of taking the murderer down.

It's good that we agree here. Still, the general public, or in this case the students, needed an area that was relatively secure from the threat. The students who thought to blockade the doorway with furniture prevented further bloodshed in their classroom - imagine how many could have been spared with solid metal doors that could have been locked from the inside, and everyone had been trained to do just that at the sound of a claxon.

 

[Katana]

You may be right, but these officers were adequately armed, they were already on the scene. I would find it difficult to simply secure my own position outside the building while imaging the carnage going on inside.

Besides, nearly every law enforcement official in the area was on the scene, precious moments were wasted while these four policemen (who apparently KNEW the gunman was inside) waited for the officers assigned to the task.

I guess what I'm saying is that these were likely four of many well-armed officers on the scene. How do we know that the rest of their team wasn't already at work on entering the building while they were to cover other potential exits for the gunman (i.e. windows)?

I realize that I didn't see the clip that you did, so maybe I'm really off-base.

 

[Mephisto]

Take the last Montréal shooting for example.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/04/16/canada.shootings.ap/index.html

The police went in right away, and took down the gunman pretty quickly.

Excellent example, and although luck had a lot to do with the police response, I think the responding officers were responsible for keeping the gunman contained. I thought this was pertinent and a good example of how the incident at VT was likely handled (from your link):

"Before our technique was to establish a perimeter around the place and wait for the SWAT team. Now the first police officers go right inside. The way they acted saved lives," he said.

While waiting for SWAT many lives were lost. I feel certain that the four officers with rifles in the student video could have put enough pressure on Cho Seung-Hui that he might have taken his own life before he killed several others.

 

[Pardalis]

Hmmm. I see there is a little gun control debate going on. Bound to happen. I wonder how many people here would still have their same opinions on gun control if they were put in the same situation as the kids during that shooting....If they saw their classmates being killed around them and bullets spraying everywhere, would they still in their minds think "Well I still support gun control banning people from carrying their weapons on campus even though that law has seemed to do nothing to stop this man from bringing one and it will not deter real criminals." or would they think "I am completely helpless! I have no means to defend myself and the law banning guns on campuses is COMPLETELY POINTLESS except for leaving me utterly defenseless!" Curious isn't it...I know one thing for sure though, anyone who was put in that situation would be MORE than happy to have had a gun on them.

The more I think about it, the less sense this post makes.

I don't know if this has been said in the thread already, but if everybody has a gun and starts shooting back at the lone guman, who is going to tell the crazy guy appart from the firing crowd? The more likely outcome is a much bigger blood bath in my opinion.

The police are trained for these situations, and know how to handle a chaos. Regular people are not.

 

[LawnOven]

The more I think about it, the less sense this post makes.

I don't know if this has been said in the thread already, but if everybody has a gun and starts shooting back at the lone guman, who is going to tell the crazy guy appart from the firing crowd? The more likely outcome is a much bigger blood bath in my opinion.

The police are trained for these situations, and know how to handle a chaos. Regular people are not.

I agree.

 

[Mephisto]

I guess what I'm saying is that these were likely four of many well-armed officers on the scene. How do we know that the rest of their team wasn't already at work on entering the building while they were to cover other potential exits for the gunman (i.e. windows)?

I realize that I didn't see the clip that you did, so maybe I'm really off-base.

You're right, but apparently the law enforcement specialist was critiquing their actions and had some evidence that this was happening before an entry was attempted. Still, I think a strong reasessment of tactics is required here, especially if you consider that breeching the building and confronting the attacker should be the singlemost important concern to save innocent lives. Instead of covering the windows (which could easily be accomplished by one or two riflemen) it seems they should have been trying to gain entry through a window.

I'm sure you likely saw the same video - which interestingly enough was taken by a Palestinian graduate student. I guess his experience with gunfire helped him keep his cool during his videotaping. In the short video segment (I would estimate maybe 30 seconds) there were 27 shots fired inside the building. It's a shame to imagine that someone might have died with each of those reports.

 

[Katana]

You're right, but apparently the law enforcement specialist was critiquing their actions and had some evidence that this was happening before an entry was attempted. Still, I think a strong reasessment of tactics is required here, especially if you consider that breeching the building and confronting the attacker should be the singlemost important concern to save innocent lives. Instead of covering the windows (which could easily be accomplished by one or two riflemen) it seems they should have been trying to gain entry through a window.

You have a point there.

I'm sure you likely saw the same video - which interestingly enough was taken by a Palestinian graduate student. I guess his experience with gunfire helped him keep his cool during his videotaping. In the short video segment (I would estimate maybe 30 seconds) there were 27 shots fired inside the building. It's a shame to imagine that someone might have died with each of those reports.

Just awful.