BUSH: "Timeline will give enemies victory"

[a_unique_person]

Is he wrong or right?

If we give a timeline, all the terrorists need to do is sit back, and wait until we leave.

Didn't we see this in Vietnam too? Where 2 million innocent people were killed after the US pulled out?

They already knew before they started that there was a timeline, even if Dubya didn't realise it at the time. Stating when that timeline ends only makes that time line more solid.

 

[slingblade]

Is he wrong or right?

If we give a timeline, all the terrorists need to do is sit back, and wait until we leave.

Didn't we see this in Vietnam too? Where 2 million innocent people were killed after the US pulled out?

So when we leave, it's going to be en masse, in the blink of an eye, and with no notice whatsoever?

"I don't know, Abdul. Monday the Americans were here, but Tuesday everything was gone and the camels looked heartbroken."

It's not going to take weeks, or even months, to remove all troops, gear, and ordnance? No one's going to get a little suspicious when everyone suddenly starts packing?

The "timeline" will be announced the moment we begin to leave.

 

[Mephisto]

So when we leave, it's going to be en masse, in the blink of an eye, and with no notice whatsoever?

"I don't know, Abdul. Monday the Americans were here, but Tuesday everything was gone and the camels looked heartbroken."

It's not going to take weeks, or even months, to remove all troops, gear, and ordnance? No one's going to get a little suspicious when everyone suddenly starts packing?

The "timeline" will be announced the moment we begin to leave.

Maybe we could just tell them that we'll be right back? I know, "we're going next door to borrow some sugar."

 

[Crossbow]

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

I have already lost a brother to the war in Iraq, so don't give me this BS about it not going to affect me. It already has.

In other words, I had family members come home in a body bag, as well as neighbors.

Well pull out.

See if I care....or better yet, see if anyone cares about the US after that.

At least all my relatives and friends from Fort Lewis will come home then.

Excuse me 'Azure' but I sure would appreciate it if you would clarify some things for me.

First, if you are from Alberta, Canada, then how can you have neighbors at Fort Lewis which in Washington, USA since those two areas are at least a couple of hundred miles apart?

Second, if you Canadian and since Canada is not part of the Iraqi Coalition Forces, then how can you have family and neighbors fighting in Iraq?

Third, if starting the Iraq War was a mistake and your friends and family are getting hurt and/or killed over this mistake, then why do you continue to support the war?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications!

 

[Solitaire]

If we give a timeline, all the terrorists need to do is sit back, and wait until we leave.

Actually, if you think about it, another timeline exists.

When we invade Iraq four years ago we had 160,000 troops now we have 120,000. The insurgents and other's kill 1,000 American soldiers and injure another 10,000 effectively removing them from war. In other words in twelve years, we'll run out of soldiers. That's how long they have to wait.

 

[hgc]

So when we leave, it's going to be en masse, in the blink of an eye, and with no notice whatsoever?

"I don't know, Abdul. Monday the Americans were here, but Tuesday everything was gone and the camels looked heartbroken."

It's not going to take weeks, or even months, to remove all troops, gear, and ordnance? No one's going to get a little suspicious when everyone suddenly starts packing?

The "timeline" will be announced the moment we begin to leave.

U.S. Forces will be raptured out of Iraq.

 

[Ladewig]

Iraq is already on the verge of civil war....pulling out will ensure that..

I am almost certain that you are right about that.

The part I am unsure about is will our staying prevent the civil war. Do you really think that this civil war can be prevented?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Excuse me 'Azure' but I sure would appreciate it if you would clarify some things for me.

First, if you are from Alberta, Canada, then how can you have neighbors at Fort Lewis which in Washington, USA since those two areas are at least a couple of hundred miles apart?

Second, if you Canadian and since Canada is not part of the Iraqi Coalition Forces, then how can you have family and neighbors fighting in Iraq?

Third, if starting the Iraq War was a mistake and your friends and family are getting hurt and/or killed over this mistake, then why do you continue to support the war?

Thanks in advance for the clarifications!

These same questions have been bugging me for two days. Thanks Crossbow for asking, and I await Azure's response.

 

[Mephisto]

In the U.S. we're shocked that a gunman killed 32 students and wounded scores of others, but in Iraq nearly four times that number were killed in a single day.

American and Iraqi forces involved in "Operation Enforcing the Law," claimed six insurgents killed and 40 captured. Compared to the 127 deaths and countless wounded, I'd say that our enemies don't care about a timeline, they're going to claim victory whether we stay or not.

Bombings in Baghdad kill scores

POSTED: 9:28 a.m. EDT, April 18, 2007

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Bombers in Baghdad on Wednesday killed 127 people in a series of attacks, including 82 in a strike at the Sadriya market.

Ninety-four others were wounded when a car detonated at the Sadriya market, which is in central Baghdad, an Interior Ministry official told CNN. There were no further details about this blast.

In Baghdad's Sadr City, at least 28 people were killed and 44 others were wounded in an attack near an Iraqi Army checkpoint at one of the entrances to Sadr City, the official said.

The official said most of the Sadr City casualties are civilians. Five of those dead and seven of those wounded were Iraqi security forces. Iraqi police are telling CNN it was a parked car bomb, and Iraqi military sources are telling CNN it was a suicide car bomb.

Iraqi and U.S. troops in Baghdad have intensified their efforts to establish the peace in war-torn Baghdad with a two-month-old crackdown called Operation Enforcing the Law.

The Interior Ministry reported other attacks:

At least 11 civilians were killed and 13 others wounded when a parked car bomb detonated in central Baghdad's Karrada district. The car was parked near a hospital and a market.

Four police officers were killed and six civilians wounded shortly when a suicide car bomber exploded at an Iraqi police checkpoint in southern Baghdad.

Two civilians were killed and nine others wounded when a roadside bomb detonated at a busy intersection in central Baghdad.

Attackers set off deadly bombs in neighborhoods across Baghdad on Wednesday, killing at least 66 people and wounding others, an Interior Ministry official said.

The deadliest strike so far occurred in Baghdad's Sadr City, where at least 28 people were killed and 44 others were wounded in an attack near an Iraqi Army checkpoint at one of the entrances to Sadr City, the official said.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/18/iraq.main/index.html

It's true I'm a devout pessimist when it comes to the subject of victory in Iraq, and I'm probably not giving the surge "a chance to work, but the politicians pushing the notion that victory CAN be achieved aren't losing a thing in this war (except maybe re-election).

 

[Bikewer]

Most authorities seem to be of the opinion that the situation is already a civil war, though perhaps a low-level one.
Most also think it's self-sustaining at this point.
Are we choosing sides? Which one?

I'm a little unclear as to what "victory" might be if this is the case. Bush keeps referring to "the terrorists" as if that were one specific group of people.

It appears to me that the goal of most of these people is to get the US out of Iraq.

 

[rikzilla]

Meph, can you name a single successful military campaign in human history that used the strategy of telling its enemy when it would withdraw from the battlefield?

Would we remember the valiant stand of the 300 if King Leonidas had said to the Persian horde: "You want our arms? Then come and get them!!! But do it before midnight tonight as we'll be leaving then and slinking back to Sparta to hide under our beds...."??

How many soldiers does it take (and for how long) to defeat Islamic jihadism anyway? There is an answer even though we can't quantify it. But I'd be willing to bet that the more time that goes by with half-hearted half-measures in place...the more soldiers and time and blood it will ultimately take.

-z

 

[Mephisto]

Meph, can you name a single successful military campaign in human history that used the strategy of telling its enemy when it would withdraw from the battlefield?

Would we remember the valiant stand of the 300 if King Leonidas had said to the Persian horde: "You want our arms? Then come and get them!!! But do it before midnight tonight as we'll be leaving then and slinking back to Sparta to hide under our beds...."??

How many soldiers does it take (and for how long) to defeat Islamic jihadism anyway? There is an answer even though we can't quantify it. But I'd be willing to bet that the more time that goes by with half-hearted half-measures in place...the more soldiers and time and blood it will ultimately take.

-z

By the same token, Rik - can you name a single military campaign that could maintain an invasion force indefinitely? Even the Romans lost their kingdom.

Regarding the King Leonidas question, you DO KNOW they all died, right?

 

[Mephisto]

It appears to me that the goal of most of these people is to get the US out of Iraq.

And we told everyone we're there to teach them Democracy.

Whatever happened to "majority rules?"

 

[Crossbow]

By the same token, Rik - can you name a single military campaign that could maintain an invasion force indefinitely? Even the Romans lost their kingdom.

Regarding the King Leonidas question, you DO KNOW they all died, right?

Thanks much 'Mephisto'!

I was hoping that someone would point out that fact about Leonidas to him.

 

[rikzilla]

Thanks much 'Mephisto'!

I was hoping that someone would point out that fact about Leonidas to him.

Yeah, I got that. Death before dishonor. What a concept! If only Leonidas had skedaddled we'd all remember what principles he stood for 2,500 years later eh?

Here's another tidbit you lot may not easily understand;

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stuart Mill

...but is clearly worth remembering.

-z

 

[quixotecoyote]

Yeah, I got that. Death before dishonor. What a concept! If only Leonidas had skedaddled we'd all remember what principles he stood for 2,500 years later eh?

Reallllly, and what principles did he stand for then?
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/culture/spartaculture.html

Maybe you should consider more carefully which values you feel are worth fighting for.

 

[Ranillon]

How many soldiers does it take (and for how long) to defeat Islamic jihadism anyway?

This strikes me as a false question -- one cannot militarily "defeat" Islamic Jihadism any more than they can militarily "defeat" racism or bigotry. In other words, you can't defeat an idea or group of ideas at the point of a gun. The closest you could do is to simply wipe-out anyone who believes, but then you're talking genocide.

Mind you, it is possible to defeat specific people who are committing specific acts. But, if you want to defeat a movement or philosophy you need to offer people a better solution. That can't be done with tanks or guns. Instead, it takes the time and patience to show how one (usually your) approach to life is more rewarding.

Hunt down and bring to justice those that commit specific crimes, but if your aim is to illustrate how your way of life is superior to another then employing armies and violence is only going to make the eventual process longer and more costly.

 

[Crossbow]

Yeah, I got that. Death before dishonor. What a concept! If only Leonidas had skedaddled we'd all remember what principles he stood for 2,500 years later eh?

Here's another tidbit you lot may not easily understand;




...but is clearly worth remembering.

-z

I did not miss that tid bit, and you have consistently failed to understand anything about this war, therefore it is quite unsurprising that you fail to understand anything about John Stuart Mill or about King Leonadis.

In the case of John Stuart Mill, he was speaking of righting a wrong that had been inflicted from some outside person, outside nation, or outside force. In the Iraq War, it the USA was the one that started the fight, therefore the Mill speech is hardly applicable to the side of the USA in this war.

In the case of King Leonadis, he was fighting to protect his home, his family, and his citizens from an army of foreign invaders. In the Iraq War, the USA has become the army of invaders of this this war (as were the Persians in the day Leonadis), therefore using the example of Leonadis to the side of the USA is hardly applicable in this war.

You are supposed to be a pilot,
and pilots are supposed to have good judgment,
but you have very poor judgment,

I will never fly with you.

 

[rikzilla]

I did not miss that tid bit, and you have consistently failed to understand anything about this war, therefore it is quite unsurprising that you fail to understand anything about John Stuart Mill or about King Leonadis.

Yes...I admit it...I fail to understand the culture of defeatism that you so clearly and objectively represent.

In the case of John Stuart Mill, he was speaking of righting a wrong that had been inflicted from some outside person, outside nation, or outside force. In the Iraq War, it the USA was the one that started the fight, therefore the Mill speech is hardly applicable to the side of the USA in this war.

Hardly. 9/11 was the true catalyst for the Iraq war. It was an act of war that was chief amongst many before it. While it has become painfully apparent that Iraq was not involved and did not have WMD's ready to supply to AQ; it was still the attack itself coupled with the possibility of worse to come that gave impetus to the Iraq invasion. Hey, don't you remember? You lot were for it before you were against it right? (Well at least your representatives were)

In the case of King Leonadis, he was fighting to protect his home, his family, and his citizens from an army of foreign invaders. In the Iraq War, the USA has become the army of invaders of this this war (as were the Persians in the day Leonadis), therefore using the example of Leonadis to the side of the USA is hardly applicable in this war.

So America went to Iraq to make slaves of Iraqis?? Unless this is your premise the paragraph quoted above is pure nonsense.

You are supposed to be a pilot,
and pilots are supposed to have good judgment,
but you have very poor judgment,

I will never fly with you.

Poor me....alas! But I shall do my very best to recover from my abject disappointment in the loss of you as a potential flying buddy!

But should stupidity itself have any slight mass at all I'm quite sure that I should find consolation for my loneliness in the enhanced performance of the aircraft that your absence will provide.

-z

 

[Azure]

So how many more would it take before you think it would be time to pull out? And please, no rhetoric, just a number within a certain time frame (ex. 10,000 over the next 50 years is no biggie, but 10,000 in the next 2 years would be).

Like I said, arrange a timeline with the Iraqi government, but don't announce it.