20 People Shot Dead on Virginia Tech Campus

[SirPhilip]

I still don't see how the phenomenon would burn out.

It's like Iraq: how do you stop sectarian violence and civil war. You can't. It's fueled by inertia among individuals. It has to take it's own course.

Seems like, if what you're saying is true, it's destined to continue indefinitely.

Nah, human folly untangles itself, albeit slowly.

Question is, how would you suggest we reverse the cultural deterioration you describe?

Well you can't. In fact, the gunman may have went off the deep end because he lost his job as a shoe salesman for all we know, and what I just wrote (and what everyone here has written) might have no actual relevance. I'm just not surprised these events happen, people should be surprised they don't happen 20 times more often.

 

[Tricky]

According to the department of vital statistics, In the US there were about 110,000 firearm homicides from 1990 to 1997 (yes, data's a bit old, but I'm guessing they haven't changed by an order of magnitude.)

That works out to about 13,700 homicides per year or more than 35 homicides per day. (Approximately 80% of the homicides were from handguns.)

I do not wish to downplay the seriousness of today's tragedy, but looking at the statistics, such a tragedy happens every day, but spread out rather than in one place. It doesn't make much sense to get outraged over this episode of murder by firearms unless you are going to be outraged every single day by firearm murders.

In my mind, the thing we need to do is to escape the gun culture, or at least handgun culture, that is so pervasive in this country. This is a very slow process because it involves changing the way our whole country feels about firearms. Restricting them in one school or city or state does no good if they are easily available everywhere.

As I understand, Australia had good success with reducing gun crime (30% drop) by passing tough national gun laws. Of course, Australia is not the US, but like the US it is relatively new to Western influences and guns were an important tool in the European settling of Australia. (No judgment made here, just information.) This gives me hope that the US can also have the courage to take strong action against the proliferation of guns without destroying our way of life. It was a mass shooting in Tasmania that prompted Oz to take these steps. If the murders of those 30+ people in Virgina could bring about a 30% drop in US gun homicides, more that 4,000 lives saved per year, then their deaths won't have been nearly as meaningless as the other 13,000 that happen each year.

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

He still has to chamber the first round unless they've invented a gun that will do it for you.

Read my answer above. As I said, as a woman will small hands I still have to use both to chamber-that is at least with my P89 and that's about all I use. With my PPK there is no button at all.

The slide won't lock back until the handgun is completely empty, that is, the magazine and chamber are empty. You simply insert a fresh magazine before the chamber is empty. If you want an extra shot per reload, remove the magazine and insert another bullet after chambering your first round.

 

[fuelair]

The Virginia legislature kills a bill that would allow people to defend themselves from a homicidal maniac, congratulates itself for having supposedly having made everyone safer when what it actually did was to make easier for the maniac to carry out his mission unimpeded, and you conclude that what's wrong with our culture is that I point up the terrible irony of the story.

Got it.

Actually, from several of the posts made since yours -which I clearly agree with - it is apparently more acceptable that 30 some odd people get killed by a shooter at one time without any chance to defend themselves than that either (one of the sillier)A)50 or 60 get killed in the gunfire from the (say doesn't VA require training in safety, actual skill at shooting, defense law, etc. to get a CP) wild crazy attempts to shoot the actual assailant Or B)
over the course of a year 5 or 6 people get harmed/killed in gun accidents - which shouldn't happen - but is certainly lessthan 30 plus people executed helplessly.
I cannot even begin to understand the mind of a person who assumes it is ok for 30 plus students to die rather than allow any students to have the means of defending themselves and, by default, others. (Or allowing the same for ,at least, administrators in any school).

I am predjudiced further in this caseby the knowledge that had I been there with either of two items of choice that vest would have just annoyed the bullets. And all the rule 8 had was a .22 and a 9mm - just announced.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Were all the students white? I am just wondering if Al Sharpton and Jackson are going to get involved or not.

 

[jnelso99]

http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/04/from_virginia_t.html

That didn't take long. Apparently douche Jack Thompson was on Fox News blaming video games for this.

 

[firecoins]

I blame video games for this. If I had not played video games as a kid, I would not be an Italian Plumber throwing barrels at monkeys.

I too believe everyone should be armed with a weapon and have the training to use it.

 

[ThinBlueLine]

Understood.

As I'm a woman with small hands, I still have to use two hands to chamber.

My sister, who is a suburban police officer also has small hands but I taught her a few tricks that may work for you in during those critical reload moments. One of your firearms is a Ruger K89, 9mm semi, correct? I taught her with a Ruger KP89 which is almost the exact model and I still have it. She could not reach the slide release with her thumb either at first. I showed her how to reseat the gun while inserting magazine so that once mag is in gun your thumb is already in position to push down on slide release. You hit that release and one is in the chamber. Just a slight movement while you already have two hands on the gun and you've eliminated a time consuming step and the possibility of misfeed from slingshoting the slide through a full cycle. I have to use a similar move whenever I need to reach the magazine drop button on another gun and I do it one handed BEFORE I have brought the magazine up to feed. I hate to presume but IF you are worried about changing grip while shooting keep in mind that in any advanced tactical training courses you switch the loaded gun completely between hands depending on what angle you are going to breech a room from. You get to the point where the gun is actually momentarily airborne as the transfer is made once you become adept. Practice it about a thousand times, unloaded of course or whatever you're muscle memory seems to work at.
Also/instead: With most Rugers, If I slam the magazine home pretty hard, it almost always forces the slide to close automatically thus feeding a round to chamber. It is a neat shortcut that armorers/gun nuts hate because it's supposedly not good for the gun in the long term. I've been doing it for 10 years or more and have no problem with that gun. That trick may also work for your James Bond Guns!

 

[ThinBlueLine]

That's a heck of a lot of hits though, with just two handguns. My old clips hold 15 rounds, so if he had the same, he still only had 30 rounds total. I'm a marksman and I doubt I could do that much damage with two 9mms.

Hey! In Illinois those magazines are for law enforcement only. Illegal for anyone else. You are lucky to live where you live. Or.... none of my business.

 

[SirPhilip]

The shooter apparently was an Asian man in his twenties, wearing a leather jacket. This is going to be quite a media circus if that also included twin
Berettas and sunglasses.

 

[Katana]

Were all the students white? I am just wondering if Al Sharpton and Jackson are going to get involved or not.

Well, I got a chuckle out of this, BT.

Perhaps it's because I'm still waiting for Sharpton's apology to the Duke lacrosse players. I think (hope?) he'll lay low for a bit.

 

[Bob Klase]

modified to remove edited responses over actioned post

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Thunder]

This is a tragic...yet extremaly random event. We live in a violent world where sometimes, terrible things happen. No reason to alter our society in any way. Life goes on.

 

[Cain]

modified to remove edited responses over actioned post

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

Sitting from your comfy chair it's easy to expect a group of people would act "rationally" and charge a lone assailant, but it's quite another matter if you've seen classmates murdered, a gun has been pointed at you, the attacker is not a stranger, or any and all of the umpteen unknowns. One has to put himself in a situation where he lacks information; where the outcome is uncertain and the circumstances are non-ideal, extremely stressful. It requires a frame of mind, which is impossible given the lack of information. As of this posting (I don't know if it's been reported) we don't know if he had them sitting with their backs against the wall, or what. Anybody can SAY they would naturally save the day, but doing it is another matter entirely. When policemen are engaged in a very high speed chase you'll often hear them screaming into the mic. These are trained officers and the adrenalin still gets to them. In this case we're talking about kids who were probably doing physics until a gun man burst into the room.

Also, I do recall mentioning, though perhaps too indirectly, what is probably the seminal economic text on groups: _The Logic of Collective Action_ by Mancur Olson. It could be argued -- though again we have to speculate until solid facts come in -- that each of the students acted in a manner more or less consistent with individual rational self-interest. The students may have possessed the resolve to join a mob, but it likely takes an individual with very high tolerance for risk to start a mob -- effectively marking oneself as the first target. It's all the more difficult if the group lacks communication and trust.

I posted a reminder earlier in this thread about the civility clause. Please refrain from negatively personalising responses. I have removed some of this post accordingly.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[FarmallMTA]

1) At each of the three major universities I graduated from, EACH police department spent over 70% of their patrolling man hours on PARKING ENFORCEMENT. I'm betting that at that time of the morning, when students are normally swarming onto campus, the campus cops were busy writing PARKING TICKETS, and were busy writing PARKING TICKETS while he was slaughtering 28 more people. Yeah, some minor heads are going to roll. But money from parking operations is way more important to college finances than a few dead kids. TOMORROW they'll be writing more parking tickets. WON'T MISS A LICK ON THE PARKING TICKET REVENUE.

2) Helpful hint to all you folks, as related by Jimmy Hoffa. "Guy comes at you with a knife, run away. Guy comes at you with a gun, run towards him and slug him in the jaw. Then get his gun and kill him." Why? Because you can outrun a knifer and you DON'T want knife wounds. But you can't outrun a gunman, so the best thing you can do is startle him by charging in order to jar his aim, and then stun him so he can't shoot, then shoot him so he can't possibly get the gun back.

 

[Katana]

I would also like to remind everyone about the additional advice in Darat's recent announcement, about not responding to personal attacks. Please ignore them, and move on. (If I had realised this went on so long, I would have moved the posts to AAH - sorry)

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Azure]

as above

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[Katana]

as above

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

 

[shuize]

Removing quoted post that has been actioned

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: chillzero

Actually, I recall an incident in Virginia a few years ago in which students retrived guns from their vehicles in order to subdue a student who killed several people at a law school.

I also remember the fact that guns were used effectively by the students was left out of almost every news report on the incident.

 

[Azure]

Facts are, if you have students carrying out campus, properly trained of course, with concealed weapons, something like this could be prevented.