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The Science of Discworld

H3LL

Illuminator
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
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I'm half-way through the second of Terry Pratchett's Science of Discworld books.

What I would like to know, from anyone that has read either, is whether the 'roundworld' science he talks about is accurate? His comment about cosmology, planetary formation and evolution seem to be so.

Has narrativium been discussed in a more academic fashion or is it pure Pratchett?

Is his concept of "L-space" consistent with phase-space thinking?

His discworld 'science' is, of course, perfect.

"Ook!"
 
Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two.

Am I going to be the only one to read the new one?

Darwin's Watch: Science of Discworld III.

And it's only one turtle (and 4 elephants. The 5th one fell off). Tsk!


BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually).
 
Larry Niven in reference to his Ringworld series has published essays about the (real-world) physics of the structure, especially aknowleging nits picked in previous descriptions by engineer fans. Two of these essays can be found appended to his latest books in the series Ringworld Throne and Ringworld's Children. The first of these essays, however, he published separately in a book of essays and short stories. (I thought it might be All the Myriad Ways, but it looks like I may have been mistaken. ) In that essay, he also considered a discworld and a Dyson sphere.

Pratchett apparently invented two different Diskworlds. The first one he presented in a story called Strata, this was the kind of discworld Niven descibed in his essay, and the story was a blatant satire on Ringworld. The second is the more familiar fantasy version with the elephants and the turtle.
 
Gwynn- I think Strata only appeared in print after the success of "The Colour of Magic", so while written earlier, the "other" discworld was published later.

Stewart and Cohen, Pratchett's collaborators on the "Science of Discworld" books, are serious scientist / mathematicians. They also wrote "What does a Martian Look Like" and several other popular books on science, as well as having worked with several well known SF writers on the construction of feasible worlds and cultures. Their science is usually pretty reliable. Where they speculate (as they do better than practically anyone) they make it plain that's what they are doing.
 
Oh, I have a student who asked if in 'Pyramids', the practice of pointing items like razors hubward in order to sharpen them, was based on any real life superstition about magnetism? Should I get a copy of this book? I have all the novels (I still find 'Good Omens' (non-Discworld, natch) the best of his work so far although the most recent one I read, 'Going Postal', is pretty close... I've developed a bit of a crush on Lord Vetinari... tch, me and sociopaths, what can I say... ) but have always hesitated about the additional non-Pratchett supplements.
 
I thought the Discworld bits were Pratchett and the Roundworld bits were two scientists (I forget their names). The books are there to explain how Roundworld works rather than expand on every bit of Discworld 'science' and folklore.

Good books, though, but may be a bit basic for the advanced thinkers.
 
H3LL said:
Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two.

Am I going to be the only one to read the new one?

I've read them. They were pretty good.


BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually).

Not unless you can wait until it's in paperback ;)

--Terry.
 
I've read the first two. They seem to be OK on the science, although I'm not an expert.

Bear in mind that a lot of the theories they cover are "only" theories...

I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher. :D
 
I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher.

I'm only part way into the first one, but from what I've read so far, I'd have to agree.
 
When Pterry took part in an online forum as a promotion for one of his books, I asked him if there was any chance of publishing all three SoD books in one volume.

He replied that they probably wouldn't because he felt that some of the science in them needed updating.
 
I've read the three of them and loved them all. All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though.

The second book deals with less firmly-grounded material, but it's fascinating nevertheless and very intriguing. It explores in deep the concepts of narrativium and L-space as a way of explaining our psychology. I loved it when the authors say that Homo sapiens is the wrong name for our species and that we should call ourselves Pan narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee. It made a good case for it, too.

The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining. It clears up, not only the most blatant misconceptions of Darwinian evolution, but also some common ones that are a bit harder to explain away (such as "survival of the fittest", what natural selection is, or competition between species).

The Discworld science is, of course, wonderful, as are the stories. And I loved how Roundworld was created! These books should be in all the libraries, yes, yes, yes, and a big yes.
 
All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though.

...

The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining.

Actually, as far as the mid 90s physics goes, it's not bad. Also, the fundamentals of inquiry do not change (they credit Newton for orbital calculations, which is as true now as it was in the 60s).

The idea of dumbing things down is really well handled by 'Lies-to-children,' 'Lies-to-readers,' etc. They do a good job, not only of explaining where these concepts come from, but also in justifying their usefulness. This would be a great accompanying text for any first year survey class of some science subject.
 
Agreed. The way they explain their "Lies-to-X" concept, is not dumbing down as such; at least, I don't see it that way. It's a way of adapting the explanation to the audience without treating the audience as idiots. And they don't hide the fact that they they are lies, while also stressing that they are useful as intermediate steps, until we get to the more sophisticated lies we have found, which are our models of how the universe works. I really liked that, as well as all the humor and the slightly irreverent examples.
 
Actually, I stopped reading partway through the third book. When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over. THey are f.ex. discussing the fact that human DNA actually contains a whole viral DNA sequence in it. This viral genome actually allows us to be born, because it stops a mother's immune system from rejecting the fetus. Which is pretty damn useful in itself.

But then they conclude that this somehow is an argument against selfish genes. They put the words selfish in italics, apparently as mockery. Which makes no sense to me at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, the whole idea about the selfish gene theory is that it'd pretty much predict that something like this would happen. Heck, Dawkins himself has discussed how the transition from being virus to become part of the ordinary DNA can happen.

They're also overstating the aspect of junk DNA being junk. Even though they are correct in that much of what we thought had no function do in fact have it, that doesn't change much. You only need one single gene that's really doing nothing at all, and then the "selfish gene" theory will be best suited to explain that, because it states that from the point of view of the gene, that's not junk at all. It's perfectly fine simply being able to split. It's only "junk" from our point of view.

I also remember they came with some comment about the "total cost" thing in book 2 (don't remember the chapter, I'm afraid). Now to my knowledge, the general consensus, especially in the gene camp, is that there is a cost associated with everything. Growing big means you require more food. Big brains require longer period of nursing. Etc. etc. They didn't seem to have much regard for the kind of evolution theory that puts the focus on this, so they suggested - before I read book 3 I thought this was a joke, but now I'm not so sure - that f.ex. the modern banana tree allowed itself to be turned into what it is by humans out of "love".

And in order to come with this claim without making it seem too outlandish, they talk about this cost-reward thing as if anything decides -beforehand- what should be done, which is a rather typical fallacy when talking about evolution. It doesn't decide anything, new abilities (or improvement of abilities, or degration of abilites) are added, and then only once it's added, you find out if the cost is bigger than the reward.

So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away.
 
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When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over.

...

So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away.

Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics?
 
Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics?

Could have been if it had been Ian Stewart making the bulk of those chapters, but from what I can see of Jack Cohen's biblography, he seems to be into biology, of which we all know evolution is a pretty damn big and important part. Living embryos, reproduction, parents making parents are three of the books I can see he's written on his own. I don't think it's a big stretch to imagine it was him having the final word on the evolutionary chapters.
 

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