432 shows harmony of Sun, Moon, Earth Design

Jiri said:
Back to our discussion, I bet you couldn't come up with a number for the following: the number of sets of thirteen numbers in the range of 16 to 175.

how much did you lose?

Right! First, Jonny missed the answer by around 20 octillions, later all the answers were corrected by JSF, and JSF himself last noted that the actual number was slightly higher than the number he has last cited
22,245,833,919,615,600,000,000,000,000 (plus or minus 10db)
 
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It quotes various approximations of Pi, and Phi (different levels of accuracy)
So not pi and phi then. And yes, I have read your big page o' fudged values on the subject, unfortunately.


and works with three levels of accuracy in stating the duration of equinoctial precession.
Anyone who actually knew would only need to use one accurate value.
 
Your conclusions really surprize me, as well as the fake air of indignation (you do not know if the engraving is limestone or quartzite, and yet you dare to study some visible aspects of it? ) Disingenuous at best, on your part.
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Um its not fake, you are basing your work on something so removed you don't know the material, this really makes me question how you can take measurments.

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Same thing, by the way I am using CAD nowadays,

That's not exactly saying alot. Generaly CAD (assuming you mean Computer Aided Design) refers to archatectural programs etc, not scientific analysis programs. Also, you are still basing this on the study of a picture, not a photo, and not the real thing. Just because you use some computer program, without a stated level of accuracy, doesn't mean a thing.

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I can't believe, you still are missing the concept. The whole numbers are the intended numbers, rounding is part of it. This is the level of accuracy the Frame sets for its particular objective. The proof is in the pudding.
How can you just round your numbers and not care that you are in doing so alter your values. Also, what pudding, you have yet to make any conclusive statements about what this proves or where you get your facts (other than your missmeasure of the drawing)
 
Now that we established that the Frame is one of octillions of possible frames it is easy to draw a couple observations:
If the Frame is accidental then there must be a large number of other frames, whose meaning is more intelligent, and more extensive regarding its perceived objectives.
If so, no one should have any difficulties in defeating blind accident and using human intelligence to compose some such superior frames and presenting them here in order to disprove my contention that the Frame is the best possible one out of all those octillions of permutations available for the purposes. Conversely, realizing this we might be a bit more appreciative of what the Frame has to offer.
The same could be said for the thirteen numbers as they are. Again, it should be possible to rearrange them, so they make better sense regarding the stated objectives. There are quite many such arrangements, why should the Frame be the best of all?
If the "accidental" Frame is the best and it beats best efforts of human intelligence then it must be deliberately created.

No, now you are just abusing statistics. Just because somthing appears intelligent, doesn't mean it is designed. I'm sorry that is just a fact and people working from a scientific frame will not budge on this (at least until someone produces an actual proof of such).

Additionaly, you do not prove your's is best, as you do not show that there is any scientific value behind this statement. You simply feal it is best, but you havn't proved that one of the other octillions of arrangments would not do whatever you seem to think this one does better (how about you actually state what it is you want to prove?)
 
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Why not presume you're a "she", Jonny-boy?

ETA: ZOMG! Neither 1452, 1000, nor 175 are Osiris numbers! Jiri, you're slipping! I suggest you choose 16 and 180 as your range of numbers, and accept 1080 and 1758 as your limits! That will make your numbers look more magical more harmonious.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] Jonny presumes you're male, but considers the possibility that you're not, since your handle here does not guarantee it. What do you find offensive about that?
 
Right! First, Jonny missed the answer by around 20 octillions, later all the answers were corrected by JSF, and JSF himself last noted that the actual number was slightly higher than the number he has last cited
22,245,833,919,615,600,000,000,000,000 (plus or minus 10db)

I take it from this then that you do have a correct number?
 
Why not presume you're a "she", Jonny-boy?

I said "he (presumption on my part...", which should parse as "he (the fact I am assuming this person is male is a presumption on my part..."

My apologies if I was unclear. I guess you could rename yourself "Manly Manstein" if you want to eliminate all possible confusion.

Unfortunately, the manliest name on this forum, "JonnyFive" is already taken. Sorry about that.
 
Thank you, so you propose a rather low number (only octillions) as the answer, but as I saw below from all the posts, the answer is not all that simple.

No, using your conditions will necessarily reduce the total number of possible sets. The number I posted is the number of total sets without your arbitrary 1000-1452 range, within the range of precision that Excel allows.

The actual number would be a little uglier, but I'm not going to bother calculating it exactly to whatever number of significant figures.

jsfisher's number was with your restriction, which was tacked onto your original question. I very explicitly stated my original calculation was not only the numbers within the range.

I also explicitly stated that the second number I posted (the estimate within range) was off because of how the set sums distribute. I know the model was overly naive, but I wasn't aware of the hyperplane solution until jsfisher explained it to me. There are still errors, but they're much smaller and more annoying to calculate.

The naive model was off by about 13 octillion, not 20. As I said as soon as jsfisher posted his method, roughly a factor of 2.

Sorry, of course, I meant whole numbers. But, as I saw, having a computer run through every permutation would take considerabe time.

Yes, it would. Which is why it would be better to approximate using other means. The geometric one that jsfisher introduced is probably the best we've currently used, although refining it is possible.

Not sure why this is so important, though.

Your claims that because there are octillions of possible arrangements of lines, and because you found some ratios, therefore it must be special somehow... well, that doesn't follow. You've yet to show evidence that you're working with a level of precision great enough to even measure correctly, let alone that the designers of this frame were somehow inspired by mystical golden ratios.

You make the same mistake as the proponents of intelligent design, assuming that because something looks a certain way, it cannot be any other way.

Maybe you should work with original sources rather than computer pictures. We played your game with the set combinations, you planning to answer these questions, now?
 
Same thing, by the way I am using CAD nowadays,
That's not exactly saying alot. Generaly CAD (assuming you mean Computer Aided Design) refers to archatectural programs etc, not scientific analysis programs. Also, you are still basing this on the study of a picture, not a photo, and not the real thing. Just because you use some computer program, without a stated level of accuracy, doesn't mean a thing.


Just to clear up a small point here, CAD generally refers to Computer Aided Drafting, and can be used for any type of vector drawing (I teach CAD classes for a living, mainly AutoCAD). The thing to be noted is that CAD is extremely precise, but not always accurate (garbage in, garbage out). CAD is what is known as a vector-drawing programs, meaning the lines are calculated based on parameters, not just a bunch of pixels on the screen.

On the other hand, the image that Jiri is using as a background must have come from either a scan of a copy of the photograph (yikes!), or by digitizing in the lines from the scan of the copy of the photograph (double yikes!). A scan or a digital photograph is known as a raster file (a bunch of non-associated pixels). Both methods of incorporating raster data into CAD software are notoriously inaccurate.

In the case, CAD may offer a more precise answer, but it certainly will not be a more accurate answer.
 
I said "he (presumption on my part...", which should parse as "he (the fact I am assuming this person is male is a presumption on my part..."

My apologies if I was unclear. I guess you could rename yourself "Manly Manstein" if you want to eliminate all possible confusion.

Okay, just don't do it again. BTW, I did mention my wife previously to your faux pas.
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Unfortunately, the manliest name on this forum, "JonnyFive" is already taken. Sorry about that.
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The manliest name on the Internet is Jiri, like King Jiri z Podebrad (remember him?) or the first man in space - Jiri Gagarin.

BTW, if Manstein was so manly, why couldn't he beat the Russians even after the entire world (including himself) said that they were beaten? I guess somebody forgot to tell them..
The last army to defeat the Russians on their territory, and live to tell all about it, was the Czech legions in Siberia, who had defeated everything Stalin threw at them, while blasting their way clear across Siberia from the Urals into Vladivostok.
Now, get this - a whole lot of these adventurers, who had overshadowed Alexander the Great's daring dash through Asia like it was just a Sunday stroll, were named Jiri, in fact it was one of their most common names.
When you hear Jiri - tremble..
 
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Now that we established that the Frame is one of octillions of possible frames it is easy to draw a couple observations:


No, that has not been established. The question you posed about the number of "sets" having a certain characteristic presumes too much to tell you much about the number of possible "frames".

For example, you specified 13 as the number of set elements, and with that, you were trying to reverse-engineering the problem to match the result you wanted. Had you found significance in a frame with only 12 bounding line segments, you'd have posed the set question with 12 as the number of elements. Had it been 17, then 17. (By the way, you seemed to have taken liberties around the boot whether to count line segments. Looks to me like you didn't count them because it wasn't the result you wanted.)

You also set an arbitrary range of 16 to 175 on the elements and an arbitrary boundary of 1,000 to 1,452 for the sum of the elements. Again, you were presuming a result. Related to that, you failed to consider units of measure. Were your measurements exact, your frame would have similar properties to the ones you attribute to it at twice the scale you used. Unfortunately, the measures were rounded, so the doubling would shift some values by +/- 1, and the attributes would vanish in a puff of round-off.

And even if we are to ignore all that, the conclusion that your frame is one in a few octillion possibilities and therefore its characteristics are significant is pure nonsense. The frame was not selected at random from all possibilities, nor was your attempt to assign significance.

If the Frame is accidental then there must be a large number of other frames, whose meaning is more intelligent, and more extensive regarding its perceived objectives.


I think you are using the word, accidental, in a novel way. No one, here, alleges the frame as accidental; it is your belief that it shows the artist must have had certain definite knowledge that is being challenged.

If so, no one should have any difficulties in defeating blind accident and using human intelligence to compose some such superior frames and presenting them here in order to disprove my contention that the Frame is the best possible one out of all those octillions of permutations available for the purposes.


The biggest problem I have with your frame analysis is that it was the reverse of sound scientific investigation. You decided you knew the conclusion, then searched for data that supported it. Science works the other way.

Conversely, realizing this we might be a bit more appreciative of what the Frame has to offer.
The same could be said for the thirteen numbers as they are. Again, it should be possible to rearrange them, so they make better sense regarding the stated objectives. There are quite many such arrangements, why should the Frame be the best of all?
If the "accidental" Frame is the best and it beats best efforts of human intelligence then it must be deliberately created.


Coincidence abounds. Moreover, some of your lines and curves are rather arbitrary, making the "result" more forced than coincidence.

By the way, I have been unable to locate an image of the frame on the Internet other than those that trace back to you, Jiri. Got any original links?
 
Right! First, Jonny missed the answer by around 20 octillions, later all the answers were corrected by JSF, and JSF himself last noted that the actual number was slightly higher than the number he has last cited
22,245,833,919,615,600,000,000,000,000 (plus or minus 10db)


JonnyFive deserves full credit for his estimate. Within the context of the original question, any value within an order of magnitude would be acceptable.

By the way, since you posed the question, Jiri, and implied you knew the answer and even knew a name for the answer, what, pray tell, are they?
 
6-If you're using a degree of precision less than x decimals to prove that the measurements of the frame show pi or phi to x decimals, why do you believe this would have no effect on your calculations?

How do you propose to record the fact that you know at least the first 18 decimals of Pi on stone? Can you use lasers to incise lines with so much precision? Of course, not.
Your idea is therefore fallacious. What you have to do is write down the idea, i.e., do it in symbols. The Athena engraving shows us how to do exactly that. Do you have a better way of recording the same along with the other info into mere thirteen segments on an apparent free hand engraving?

Let's face it - you don't, and you won't, because the Frame is not only intelligent, but it is truly brilliant.
There is a philosophical aspect to this, if we really needed micro-measurements to discover intelligent design in the engraving, then the engraving's benefits would be limited to the few people with direct access to the item. The ancient designers manage to maintain some control across time by making it possible to catch on to their symbolic language for mere members of the audience like me, or you.

355 / 113 = 3.141592.. the first six decimals in the ratio between the two whole numbers coincide with Pi.
Voila, whole numbers read out in decimals, in a divisional reading mode! Ideas govern measurements.

7-Why did you divide the frame into a pie chart, and why did you arrange it like that?

The Frame is a circuit. A pie-chart is also a circuit. The Frame can be represented by a pie-chart. It makes many things simpler, but the numbers are still all there.
This idea can be pursued to where you reduce this circuit to let's say the numbers that divide evenly into 25,920, or you can reduce it to those that don't.

You can reorganize the values by their size. See the example. You can perform simple arithmetic operations on blocks of values to see what they do. You are playing a game initiated by the ancient designers.

You can falsify this process, but if you don't design your values in carefully, the falsificate will be a sorry failure

8-Some of your calculations round mm to cm to obtain a ratio, why? Note that this leads me to believe you're working with a precision of over 1 cm, which will consequently lead me to laugh at any claims you have to have measured anything in half mm!

How bizarre, I must laugh right back at your ideas. Have you ever heard the term "expressed in terms of"? An item like a distance can be expressed in terms of whole millimeters, as well as whole centimeters, etc.

9-Perhaps most importantly: Why did you draw the lines where you drew them? As bruto pointed out, there does not appear to be a compelling reason for this except for drawing those lines there because you wanted to create certain ratios.

That's just something you tenaciously hold onto for the dear life of your idea. This would be a perfect situation for a confrontation, where everybody could see the jumping ball. In the absence of that, give me a concrete example, and I'll react.

Go ahead, take your time. You insist that this was all designed (ETA: By the frame makers, not by you), and that it has some significance. Now it's time to prove it, if you're so inclined. That web page is not convincing, maybe your arguments will be.
 

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