Should prostitution be legal?

[RandFan]

Fair enough until you start talking about prostitution as a "biological function". The urge to have sex, the fact that it gives us pleasure to have it, is a biological function. Selling it, isn't! (Isn't that fairly obvious? That selling and buying is social in nature?)

BFD, so what? Two people having sex is between the two people having sex. It's just a biological function. There is nothing inherently wrong or immoral about it. End of story.

Prostitution seems to be inherently much more risky than most other jobs.

Hold on, you are being inconsistent. You said earlier that it was easy to prevent STD's.

The studies I've seen don't suggest that any kind of prostitution is as safe as ordinary work - which, by the way, is not always as safe as it ought to be!

The onus is on your to demonstrate prostitution is not relatively safe and you will have to revisit your claim about STD's

 

[RandFan]

Dagmar Herzog: “Sex was simply better and much easier for women in the East. ‘You poor women in the West, we feel sorry for you!’”
Speaker: "Now (after Germany was reunited) was the hour of the sociologists. They compared their studies from the latest decades and measured everything pertaining to German-German sex: the age at which young people start having it, change of partners, the length of penises. Even the rate of orgasms was allegedly twice as high as in the West. Sex in Socialism: earlier, more frequent, better.”

Yes, being a communist will make your penis larger. The funny thing is you buy this propaganda without a single moment of skepticism.

You are to willing to drink the Kool-Aid my friend.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

No, actually my idea of voluntary is a situation where poverty doesn't force choices on people that aren't real choices.

Wait! In a society without poverty, someone still needs to clean the dirty toilets. Someone has to wash the soiled diapers for a diaper service. What is it with your philosophical "real choices" thing.

Prostitution is called the oldest profession for a reason. Women would be a heck of a lot less repressed if prostitution were legal. Then let's see who makes this choice and who doesn't.

 

[Tailgater]

Dann, lets say in your world everyone makes X. X gets you everything you need to survive. You get education, food, shelter, medical, satellite TV and internet (just to go all the way). What deters women from using their bodies to get X+more money, luxuries, drugs, whatever, etc?

 

[dann]

BFD, so what? Two people having sex is between the two people having sex. It's just a biological function. There is nothing inherently wrong or immoral about it. End of story.

No, there is nothing inherently wrong about having sex. There is something wrong about having to sell it. End of story.

Hold on, you are being inconsistent. You said earlier that it was easy to prevent STD's.

I am not inconsistent. That you cannot stick to an argument isn't my fault. It is very easy to protect yourself from STDs. (Well, condoms don't protect you from crab lice, but it is very good protection from most other STDs.)
You, however, now pretend that STDs are the only problem facing prostitutes, and by now it cannot be because you are simply ignorant. Violent, deceitful johns is one very real problem. So is the tendency of prostitutes to take drugs to dull their senses in order to do the job, but you obviously don't want to know about the reality of prostitution. In this case by pretending that when I talk about risks, then the risks of getting STDs is the only one. Along with all the others here you hide behind your ideal of legalized prostitution in a safe environment where everybody lived happily ever after.

The onus is on your to demonstrate prostitution is not relatively safe and you will have to revisit your claim about STD's

So far you and the rest of the prostitution fans have come up with no facts and figures whatsoever. Why don't you present the statistics to prove that prostitution in legalized brothels is just as safe as being a scientist, a policewoman etc.? Because you can't??! Because your fairytale is the only thing you have?

 

[dann]

Yes, being a communist will make your penis larger. The funny thing is you buy this propaganda without a single moment of skepticism.

You are to willing to drink the Kool-Aid my friend.

I didn’t even know that Dagmar Herzog was a commie!

"Herzog's book succeeds elegantly as both a scholarly history of sexual morality in Germany and an examination of the way this history is so often distorted in the present day."--Publishers Weekly
"Forcefully argued and elegantly written. . . . Herzog's passionate insistence on the centrality of sexuality as an explanatory category and on the uncomfortably tight link between pleasure and evil provides fresh and bold insight into two of modern German history's most confounding questions: how National Socialism established and maintained its 'extraordinary appeal' and, conversely, how postwar Germans managed to morph so quickly into peaceful stability."--Atina Grossmann, American Historical Review
"Sex after Fascism is one of the best books of the past twenty years on the history of sexuality, and certainly the best book on this particular subject."--Thomas Laqueur, BookForum
"Dagmar Herzog's source-rich and solidly researched analysis surprises and challenges; it convinces over and over again through an unpretentious presentation of forgotten facts and connections. With nuance and yet also with clarity, the American historian shows how human beings who talk about sex are always also talking about other things entirely--and thereby revealing much about themselves."--Urs Rauber, Neue Zürcher Zeitung
"An always provocative and fascinating account of 20th-century German social, political, and cultural history. . . . Herzog provides valuable insights for an understanding of the historical contretemps and conundrums of 20th century Europe."--Jane Slaughter, Labour/Le Travail
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7955.html

I don’t know about all the magazines and newspapers, but I can assure you that the Neue Zürcher Zeitung is not a left-wing newspaper!

And again you don't have a single argument or a single fact to back up your prejudiced rejection of reality. It doesn't agree with you, so it must be propaganda!

 

[dann]

Wait! In a society without poverty, someone still needs to clean the dirty toilets. Someone has to wash the soiled diapers for a diaper service. What is it with your philosophical "real choices" thing.

We already had the toilets. Will you please look up the argument earlier on in this thread instead of simply repeating it? It doesn't get any better the second time around.

Prostitution is called the oldest profession for a reason. Women would be a heck of a lot less repressed if prostitution were legal. Then let's see who makes this choice and who doesn't.

Yes, it's called woman's oldest profession by sexists who don't know anything about history. In some places prostitution is legal and regulated. Now you have to come up with the statistics to prove that it's a good job for the poor women who have this "choice" thrust upon them.

 

[dann]

Dann, lets say in your world everyone makes X. X gets you everything you need to survive. You get education, food, shelter, medical, satellite TV and internet (just to go all the way). What deters women from using their bodies to get X+more money, luxuries, drugs, whatever, etc?

So this is what a woman gets out of it? Not only survival, but also education, medical, satellite TV and internet - and "just" (!) to go all the way with people that she doesn't necessarily like and who may be out to harm her?
Sounds like a match made in Heaven, doesn't it? So how come most hookers want to leave the 'profession'? It's a mystery, isn't it? (Go back and find the quotations yourself. It's all here in this thread!)

 

[Earthborn]

Now you have to come up with the statistics to prove that it's a good job for the poor women who have this "choice" thrust upon them.

It is not a good job for poor women who have it thrust upon them. It is for you to prove that it is not a good job for women who choose the job freely because they like it.

 

[Tailgater]

So this is what a woman gets out of it? Not only survival, but also education, medical, satellite TV and internet - and "just" (!) to go all the way with people that she doesn't necessarily like and who may be out to harm her?
Sounds like a match made in Heaven, doesn't it? So how come most hookers want to leave the 'profession'? It's a mystery, isn't it? (Go back and find the quotations yourself. It's all here in this thread!)

Most does not equal all and you totally misunderstood the post or are purposely being obtuse. X is what a woman needs to survive in your plan. In your plan, these things are covered by being in the collective. If a woman is receiving everything she needs for basic survival by others, why do you think that is all she will want to be happy? What deters women from using their bodies to get X+more money, luxuries, drugs, whatever, etc?

 

[Ladewig]

FThat women working for legalized pimps have average life expectancies, for instance? That their emotions don't become callous from having to do for a living what most other people would only want to do with that special someone they feel attracted to?
The studies I've seen don't suggest that any kind of prostitution is as safe as ordinary work - which, by the way, is not always as safe as it ought to be!

I will agree with you that every place that prostitution is illegal the women face the consequences you describe. I will go further and agree with you that every place it is legal and that women are treated as second class citizens (and poor women are treated as third class citizens) the consequence you describe are accurate. However, I will not agree that all prositution produces those outcome.

When I lived in Holland, I visited a couple of red-light districts and saw some of what you describe in the faces of the women standing behind glass windows trying to attract the attention of customers. However, the Netherlands also has private brothels called privés. I met women there who were earning a few extra dollars while they attended universities. Yes, I am saavy enough to know that not every prostitute that claims to be a student really is a student. I had lenghty talks with these women and they clearly were well-read, well-spoken, and well-educated. They usually worked in cities that were 10 to 20 miles away from their college so that they would not run into professors and fellow students. It was very clear that they were voluntarily engaging in a legal profession and were capable of leaving anytime they wished.

Therefore, I believe that it is possible to legalize prositution in some countries and regulate it enough to protect the workers.

 

[dann]

... every place it is legal and that women are treated as second class citizens (and poor women are treated as third class citizens) the consequence you describe are accurate. However, I will not agree that all prositution produces those outcome. (...) I believe that it is possible to legalize prositution in some countries and regulate it enough to protect the workers.

You probably don't see the contradiction: There aren't (and cannot be) any countries where poor women aren't treated as third-class citizens, but instead are revered and rewarded! Then they wouldn't be poor, would they? So your countries where it would be "possible to legalize prostitution" would be the countries where poverty had been abolished, right?

Your story from Holland is just more anecdotal evidence! Apparently this is all you can come up with. Even astrologers tend to have more substantiation ...
By the way, why do you refer to the money earned by prostitute university students as "extra"? And why do they apparenty stop once they graduate? You don't mention any Ph.D. hookers, but maybe they just don't need any 'extra' money ...

 

[Lonewulf]

Speaking of prostitution, anyone been reading the latest of College Roommates from Hell?

http://www.crfh.net/d/20070416.html

(This and today's is good; I didn't link today's, as it'll change when a new strip comes up)

 

[Ladewig]

You probably don't see the contradiction:

No, I guess I don't. I am agreeing with you that countries that have institutionalized sexism and crushing poverty that prevents social mobility can never have ethical prostitution.

There aren't (and cannot be) any countries where poor women aren't treated as third-class citizens, but instead are revered and rewarded! Then they wouldn't be poor, would they? So your countries where it would be "possible to legalize prostitution" would be the countries where poverty had been abolished, right?

I pretty much agree with that. I don't think any country has completely eliminated poverty, but if you are talking about countries that have drastically reduced poverty, then I agree. I would also add that Holland has less puritan attitudes about sex than many of the other countries discussed so far. On the whole, I agree with you: I cannot think of any other countries in the world where I would describe prostitution as moral or ethical.

Your story from Holland is just more anecdotal evidence! Apparently this is all you can come up with.

Yes, but an ancedote was all that was needed. The claim was prositution is always immoral because it preys on the weaker members of society. A single instance of it not preying on weaker members is enough to prove the original claim to be inaccurate.

By the way, why do you refer to the money earned by prostitute university students as "extra"? And why do they apparenty stop once they graduate?

Because at that point they have the resources to turn to better jobs, just as the fast-food cook who works part time while attending college quits that job upon graduating.

 

[dann]

The claim was prositution is always immoral because it preys on the weaker members of society.

I don't think anybody mentioned morals in this context. I certainly didn't, but I am aware that many strawmen implied that I did.

Because at that point they have the resources to turn to better jobs, just as the fast-food cook who works part time while attending college quits that job upon graduating.

EXACTLY!!! As soon as they have resources, good alternatives, they leave the 'trade'. As long as they don't, that's when they have reason to be prostitutes (or fast-food cooks).

 

[Tailgater]

EXACTLY!!! As soon as they have resources, good alternatives, they leave the 'trade'. As long as they don't, that's when they have reason to be prostitutes (or fast-food cooks).

Well, somebody has to cook my burger.

 

[slingblade]

So far you and the rest of the prostitution fans have come up with no facts and figures whatsoever. Why don't you present the statistics to prove that prostitution in legalized brothels is just as safe as being a scientist, a policewoman etc.? Because you can't??! Because your fairytale is the only thing you have?

All I have is anecdotal. Sorry. A friend of mine is a legal prostitute in a Nevada brothel. She has been for about 5 years now.

I'm not sure why you'd want to compare safety rates of prostitutes with scientists, as I think only one of them has sex with strangers for money. I mean, you can't really ask a scientist what her chances of getting raped on the job are, and then ask a prostitute, and end up with any kind of meaningful comparison, can you?

I've been trying to look up studies, but either my Google-Fu is weak, or there aren't any posted. At any rate, I can at least say I've had several discussions with a legal prostitute. I have more than a "fairy-tale" to go on, even if it isn't strictly scientific.

What do you have?

 

[FarmallMTA]

Your question poses a big example of in-the-box thinking. There's the much more effective policy beyond just the legalize yes or no propositions.

Prostitution should NOT just be legal, but mandatory, like paying taxes to help support Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

Governments should pay women (or men who want to be women... hey, trying out the PC non-bias thing. How'm I doing?) to become registered and regulated prostitutes (condom use, venereal disease inspection, birth control, etc). And then pay men the cost of utilizing their services PLUS a bonus reward for doing so.

This would put an end to all non-procreative free sex. Heck, women couldn't GIVE away free sex if men were getting paid to have sex-for-rent.

That gets rid of lots of social ills, including out of wedlock children, rape, incest, venereal disease. At the source, as it were.

I suppose that some conservative will come up with some wacky counter argument like they always do along the lines of "unlimited payments to people to have sex will cause unlimited paid sex to occur and destroy the budget and the economy, blah, blah, blah, natter, natter, natter." Typical how human NEEDS and human WANTS always come dead last with those darned conservatives.

But surely we can demonstrate that without adequate and urgently needed government intervention, sex without consequences simply isn't possible. A National Sex Care Plan, along the lines of a National Health Care Plan is the only answer.

 

[RandFan]

There is something wrong about having to sell it.

And that something would be?

End of story.

Sorry no. It's very poor form to simply declare something wrong and end of story. You've got to at least make an argument.

You, however, now pretend that STDs are the only problem facing prostitutes, and by now it cannot be because you are simply ignorant. Violent, deceitful johns is one very real problem. So is the tendency of prostitutes to take drugs to dull their senses in order to do the job, but you obviously don't want to know about the reality of prostitution.

Demonstrate that prostitutes who ply their trade where it is legal are any more likely to self medicate than any other poor person?

Why don't you present the statistics to prove that prostitution in legalized brothels is just as safe as being a scientist, a policewoman etc.?

Present the statistic to prove that legalized prostitution is more dangerous?

 

[RandFan]

And again you don't have a single argument or a single fact to back up your prejudiced rejection of reality. It doesn't agree with you, so it must be propaganda!

There is no known way outside of surgery to increase the size of your penis. Living in East Germany won't make for a larger penis. BTW they are YOUR claims so you will have to prove them and a silly magazine article (yes silly) is not proof.

Most people wanted to get out of the DDR it sucked so bad. And when it was reunified few if any wanted communism so your article is really, really dumb