Should prostitution be legal?

[CyCrow]

on Norway...

Apparently ...
Quote:
Norway has got too many customers compared to the number of prostituted women. Earlier, Norway exported the customers for sex-tourism to Thailand and the Philippines. Now, there are so many poor white women, that prostitutes are imported from Norway's neighbouring countries. This is common through the whole of Europe, and in Norway we see it mostly in the northern parts of the country, along the Russian border.
The reports from Eastern Europe are similar to the ones from Thailand. The main point is that prostitution is cheap here, and that the women there are more submissive than the Norwegian women.
In the prostitution debate, many people claim that it's because of the prostituted women that prostitution exists. Our point is that this market survives by the customers, the johns. Poverty alone is not the cause of prostitution, also seeing women as goods to be bought is what makes it possible for men to buy women. Prostitution is mainly about rich, white men buying poor women, and it's an enormous worldwide industry.
Image 23 - Cocktail, unknown number
Personal ads
Pornographic magazines are also used for advertising bride-trade. Russian women travel to Scandinavia, and are bought by Scandinavian men. Russian Mafia arranges this trade. We also hear stories about Russian women who search for Norwegian husbands through contact bureaux. They are poor and wish for a better life. The Russian women pay the bureaux a lot of money, and the bureaux send their personal ads to Norwegian porn magazines. There's a huge contrast between these ads and the other ones on this page. Men send their naked pictures, say they've looking for "perverted women". In the ads from the Russian women we can read: " I like to travel, dance, drive a car, listen to music..." or "I love art, music, literature..." Imagine what the Norwegian men search for while contacting women whose ads they find in these porn magazines.
Norwegian shelters for abused women report about increasing numbers of Russian women contacting them, having experienced abuse and rape from their Norwegian husbands. The Russian women are have few rights in Norway, they have to choose between staying in an abusive marriage or sent back to poverty.
http://www.ottar.as/artikler/new_york.htm

As you are touching on Norway here, I would just like to say that Ottar is a very biased source. They are considered the fringe man-hating part of the feminist movement, and have little support in the population. The most reliable info on prostitution in Norway is probably Prosenteret: http://www.prosentret.no (mostly in norwegian, you should be able to read it dann).

In general, it is hard to find unbiased research in this area, as it is very easy to compare apples to oranges. Different kinds of prostitution have very different dynamics and populations, and can't be easily compared. You can't for example compare PTSD for street prostitutes in South Africa with legal voluntary prostitution. It's very easy to use selection bias to push an agenda.

// CyCrow

 

[dann]

As you are touching on Norway here, I would just like to say that Ottar is a very biased source. They are considered the fringe man-hating part of the feminist movement, and have little support in the population. The most reliable info on prostitution in Norway is probably Prosenteret: http://www.prosentret.no (mostly in norwegian, you should be able to read it dann).

It did not escape my attention, CyCrow, but since RandFan used this as his reference to prostitution in Norway, I did not worry too much about biased references!

In general, it is hard to find unbiased research in this area, as it is very easy to compare apples to oranges. Different kinds of prostitution have very different dynamics and populations, and can't be easily compared. You can't for example compare PTSD for street prostitutes in South Africa with legal voluntary prostitution. It's very easy to use selection bias to push an agenda.

I agree. The main problem with this discussion so far is that both the customers and the prostitutes have been presented in a very, let's say idealized way: The johns as handicapped or otherwise challenged men who would not get any sex if it weren't for the angels of mercy who, of their own free will choose to become prostitutes - in spite of the fact that reality (e.g. Norway) paints a very different picture. This, of course, is what always happens in a discussion like this: Should prostitution be legal? People turn into little lawyers, people with their heads full of law, who don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about the truth.
So much for skepticism ...

 

[DanishDynamite]

It did not escape my attention, CyCrow, but since RandFan used this as his reference to prostitution in Norway, I did not worry too much about biased references!

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

 

[dann]

By the way, what exactly is "legal voluntary prostitution"?? And I mean in the real world, not in somebody's notions of the ideal kind of prostitution in the imaginary world of free enterprise idealists!

 

[DanishDynamite]

By the way, what exactly is "legal voluntary prostitution"?? And I mean in the real world, not in somebody's notions of the ideal kind of prostitution in the imaginary world of free enterprise idealists!

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

 

[dann]

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

See what I mean, CyCrow, when I talk about people "who turn into little lawyers, people with their heads full of law, who don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about the truth."?

 

[DanishDynamite]

See what I mean, CyCrow, when I talk about people "who turn into little lawyers, people with their heads full of law, who don't give a ◊◊◊◊ about the truth."?

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

 

[dann]

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

Thank you, DD, but I already have a sig line!

 

[DanishDynamite]

Thank you, DD, but I already have a sig line!

You don't care one way or the other, remember? You don't care about laws and how they are enforced.

 

[RandFan]

Or they would have had to go without any.

But this is completely an unrealistic proposition. When someone wants something he or she simply increases the offer of money until the the desire is met.

Like I said before, this is how your equilibrium of supply and demand works when people starve to death because they don't have the money they need to buy food!

There you are with that strawman again.

{sigh}

Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.
Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.

Some day you will get this.

I have conceded from the beginning that poverty offers little opportunity for poor women. You refuse to acknowledge this but it is dishonest on your part. You claim that you don't ignore arguments but you refuse to acknowledge that I have always admitted that poverty makes it difficult for poor women to work in a good environment, have good working hours and have choices.

I'm guessing you will continue to be obtuse.

The United States is in the top 10 for HDI BTW and that is with a large influx of poor immigrants who are undocumented and easily exploited.

The free market has created a large and flourishing middle class in America. We have our problems but most people have cars and TV's and there is no starvation. We can do better but you should be honest enough to admit that things are relatively good here.

Your sentences are starting to grow a little incomprehensible, but I think that get the drift. However, what happened in Norway didn't quite live up to your theory that 'poverty disappeared, prostitutes dropped the 'profession', leading to rising prices leading to more prostitutes'. Instead the johns looked for a new supply of impoverished women, i.e: You cannot put a stop to prostitution without eliminating povertey!

Supply and demand. There was a demand and there was a supply. I stand vindicated. Sex isn't about the opportunity to exploit. It's just about sex. If the cheap supply of prostitutes had dried up then those who wanted sex would have simply paid more.

Supply and demand.

And then the US farmers might be out of business because they can't afford to pay higher wages and at the same time having to compete with farmers abroad. Unless, of course, the US government decides to introduce new measures to restrict imports, i.e. (even) higher tariffs on imported foodstuffs, thus changing the notoriously unalterable laws of economics ...

Not all crops are harvested by migrants. That is the fatal flaw in your belief. In many parts of America farmers pay more for some crops. This just increases the price of food. Simple economics.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, this is actually the 'elephant' that you use instead of an argument. As if the demand creates the supply.
The explanation for the sex drive, by the way, is Darwinian. All species with two sexes have it, or they wouldn't be. Only one species has prostitution, although sociobiologist are able to make analogies to spiders etc. No biological craving drives women to sell sex.

Only one species sells anything includeing sex. Now Bonobo's would seem to use sex to get desired ends, and that could well fit into prostitution

 

[andyandy]

OK, it was just meant as a joke on you and andypandy!

the way to embarrass a fool is to keep him talking.....

How old are you dann?

 

[CyCrow]

By the way, what exactly is "legal voluntary prostitution"?? And I mean in the real world, not in somebody's notions of the ideal kind of prostitution in the imaginary world of free enterprise idealists!

The opposite of illegal forced prostitution? Seriously, you know what the words mean. It's just that your idea of "voluntary" must be a situation where nobody wants or needs more money/goods, so that money can't be used to influence peoples actions. That is TRULY an imaginary world.

// CyCrow

 

[dann]

But this is completely an unrealistic proposition. When someone wants something he or she simply increases the offer of money until the the desire is met.

Or dies if that person cannot afford to pay for his food, or do without sex if that is the 'commodity' we are talking about.
Your 'equilibrium of supply and demand' is a children's fairytale!

Poverty makes for few or even no choices for poor women.

Some day you will get this.

I have conceded from the beginning that poverty offers little opportunity for poor women. You refuse to acknowledge this but it is dishonest on your part. You claim that you don't ignore arguments but you refuse to acknowledge that I have always admitted that poverty makes it difficult for poor women to work in a good environment, have good working hours and have choices.

And yet you bring up this argument again and again:

However if a woman has a choice and there are opportunities for the woman then it is not exploitation.

The United States is in the top 10 for HDI BTW and that is with a large influx of poor immigrants who are undocumented and easily exploited.

And there are a lot of US natives who are poor and easily exploited too!

The free market has created a large and flourishing middle class in America. We have our problems but most people have cars and TV's and there is no starvation. We can do better but you should be honest enough to admit that things are relatively good here.

As compared with Uganda or Nigeria, definitely! As compared with most of Latin America and the conditions there that your country controls, yes.
But don't forget the people who do not belong to your "large and flourishing middle class". Or are you saying that Dr. Joycelyn Elders is lying?

The other thing that I think we need to ask is Why do people go into prostitution? Most of the men and women who become sex workers do so because they're having trouble with money. They're really doing it to stay out of poverty or because they're poor. So poverty is often the cause of prostitution and I think we need to deal with that. I'm not saying that eliminating poverty is the only cure, but I think it is very significant. Some of the studies show that as the economy goes down, prostitution of both men and women goes up. When we start cutting Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), we find more AFDC moms being arrested for prostitution. We've known for many years that many women marry just for money. To me, that's one more form of prostitution.
(…)
We [the United States] control 25 percent of the world's wealth and have only 5 percent of the world's population; yet we can't feed and house our own people. We have children in America who will only be members of what I call the "5H Club": children who are Hungry - every night we have 5 million children who go to bed hungry - then Home-less; Health-less; Hug-less; and Hope-less. That's a real problem.

Supply and demand. There was a demand and there was a supply. I stand vindicated.

Along with poverty, along with better opportunities, prostitution in Norway declined, so the Norwegians had to go somewhere else, somewhere with abject poverty, to get a new supply.

Sex isn't about the opportunity to exploit.

No, poor women with no other choice is an opportunity to exploit sex!

It's just about sex. If the cheap supply of prostitutes had dried up then those who wanted sex would have simply paid more.

Or they would have had to simply do without prostitutes. Only your fairytale notion of the 'equilibrium of supply and demand' prevents you from understanding this, even though it's apparent in the world to the extent that it is part of children's rhymes in my country.

Supply and demand.

Not all crops are harvested by migrants. That is the fatal flaw in your belief. In many parts of America farmers pay more for some crops. This just increases the price of food. Simple economics.

Yes, and consequently the government pays subsidies to farmers, raises customs duties to protect them, in short does what it can to drive poor farmers in the third world out of business instead of the farmers in the USA.
Supply and demand .... of subsidies and tariff barriers.

 

[dann]

Only one species sells anything includeing sex. Now Bonobo's would seem to use sex to get desired ends, and that could well fit into prostitution

You should have pondered a little longer on this one, Turtle! I 'use sex to get desired ends'! The desired ends are called physical intimacy and orgasms! And, no, that does not well fit into prostitution which is sex for money, the money being the desired end for one of the participants. And even though bonobos do it face-to-face they don’t seem to have come up with the money-up-front idea.
Bonobos .... now there's an endles supply and demand, and all for free!
http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/296/3094/1024/bonoboswoman.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/296/3094/1024/bonobos.0.jpg
http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobos-sexual.html (somebody already pointed out that this is probably parental care and not sex!)
http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html (notice that the title is Love, Not War, and not Prostitution, Not Military Service
But we already had a bonobo thread

 

[RandFan]

Your 'equilibrium of supply and demand' is a children's fairytale!

Stating that it is a fairytale doesn't make it so.

And yet you bring up this argument again and again:

I'm just stating the facts.

And there are a lot of US natives who are poor and easily exploited too!
As compared with Uganda or Nigeria, definitely! As compared with most of Latin America and the conditions there that your country controls, yes.
But don't forget the people who do not belong to your "large and flourishing middle class". Or are you saying that Dr. Joycelyn Elders is lying?

You are making that strawman again. I'm not going to keep arguing what you and I already agree on. I realize that being obtuse is your modus but it's boring.

Along with poverty, along with better opportunities, prostitution in Norway declined, so the Norwegians had to go somewhere else, somewhere with abject poverty, to get a new supply.

No, they just had to go somewhere to find a cheaper supply.

Or they would have had to simply do without prostitutes.

Yet you know that this isn't true. You have conceded that there are high priced call girls. There is no reason why there can't be middle class call girls. Guys will just have to pay a little more. That's all.

 

[dann]

The opposite of illegal forced prostitution? Seriously, you know what the words mean. It's just that your idea of "voluntary" must be a situation where nobody wants or needs more money/goods, so that money can't be used to influence peoples actions. That is TRULY an imaginary world.

No, actually my idea of voluntary is a situation where poverty doesn't force choices on people that aren't real choices.

 

[RandFan]

No, actually my idea of voluntary is a situation where poverty doesn't force choices on people that aren't real choices.

I don't know who would disagree. So long as prostitution was legal and women had a choice. Hey, if you are right then there is zero reason not to legalize prostitution. Let's just improve working conditions, hours and educate women and give them more choices.

Hell, if all women should choose not to be prostitutes that would not bother me. No woman should have to be a prostitute if she doesn't want to. You and I agree on a lot.

I'm for women not being prostitutes if they don't want to be.
I'm for empowering women, educating women and giving them opportunity.
If they choose to be scientists, doctors, basket ball players, mothers, lawyers, dentists, judges, mechanics, etc., I say cool. All the power to them. Their contributions can only make the world a better place to be.

I just think that the expectation that prostitution can be eliminated is silly. It's a biological function. It's not inherently demeaning. It is not inherently more risky than many other jobs so lets make it safe and legal if women should choose to do it.

Fair enough?

 

[dann]

I just think that the expectation that prostitution can be eliminated is silly. It's a biological function. It's not inherently demeaning. It is not inherently more risky than many other jobs so lets make it safe and legal if women should choose to do it.

Fair enough?

Fair enough until you start talking about prostitution as a "biological function". The urge to have sex, the fact that it gives us pleasure to have it, is a biological function. Selling it, isn't! (Isn't that fairly obvious? That selling and buying is social in nature?) Prostitution seems to be inherently much more risky than most other jobs. You will probably be able to come up with statistics to prove that working in a legalized brothel with bouncers and health inspectors is less risky than streetwalking, but the bouncers and health inspectors are there for a reason. (The latter probably to protect the johns from HIV rather than the prostitutes.)
Can you come up with statistics to prove that legalized prostitution is not only inherently less risky than some other jobs, for instance as "scientists, doctors, basket ball players, mothers, lawyers, dentists, judges, mechanics, etc."? That women working for legalized pimps have average life expectancies, for instance? That their emotions don't become callous from having to do for a living what most other people would only want to do with that special someone they feel attracted to?
The studies I've seen don't suggest that any kind of prostitution is as safe as ordinary work - which, by the way, is not always as safe as it ought to be!

 

[dann]

For the benefit of Mark and others (= I didn't know where else to place it):

Dagmar Herzog, Historikerin, USA: „Was ich in den neunziger Jahren erlebt habe, als ich anfing an dem Thema Sexualität der Deutschen zu arbeiten, ist, dass Ex-DDR-Frauen mit liebenswürdiger Herablassung und Mitleid mir erzählt haben, wie viel schöner es die Frauen im Osten doch hatten.“

Kurt Starke, Sexualforscher: “Es gibt da schon Ost-West-Unterschiede, z.B. wenn eine Ostfrau mit jemandem sexuell zusammen ist und hat gerade mal keinen Orgasmus, da ist sie nicht blitz böse. So’ne Sache halt. Das nächste Mal klappt’s schon wieder.“

Dagmar Herzog: „Sex war einfach viel besser und viel leichter für Frauen im Osten. ‚Ihr armen West-Frauen, ihr tut uns leid!’“

Speaker: “Nun schlägt die Stunde der Soziologen. Sie vergleichen ihre Studien der letzten Jahrzehnte und sie vermessen alles, was mit deutsch-deutschem Sex zu tu hat: Einstiegsalter, Partnerwechsel, Penislänge. Sogar die Orgasmusrate soll im Osten angeblich doppel so hoch sein wie im Westen. Der Sex im Sozialismus: früher, öfter, besser.“

This Saturday a friend of mine sent me a copy of a 40-minute-long German TV show, Sex im geteilten Deutschland, Sex in the divided Germany, by André Meier. This is my translation of my transcription from the intro:

Dagmar Herzog, historian, USA: ”What I experienced when I started working with the theme the sexuality of the Germans in the 1990s is that the former East German women with amiable condescencion and pity told me how much better the women had it in the East.”

Kurt Starke, sexual researcher: “There actually are differences between East and West, e.g. when an East German woman has sexual intercourse with somebody and doesn’t have an orgasm, she does not immediately get angry. Such things happen. The next time it will be more successful.“

Dagmar Herzog: “Sex was simply better and much easier for women in the East. ‘You poor women in the West, we feel sorry for you!’”
Speaker: "Now (after Germany was reunited) was the hour of the sociologists. They compared their studies from the latest decades and measured everything pertaining to German-German sex: the age at which young people start having it, change of partners, the length of penises. Even the rate of orgasms was allegedly twice as high as in the West. Sex in Socialism: earlier, more frequent, better.”

http://www.deckert-distribution.com/films/deckert_216.htm (English)
http://www.daserste.de/doku/beitrag_dyn~uid,kzgdetfhavauezt1~cm.asp (German)
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,Ple5Lar/kultur/artikel/858/92766/ (German)
http://www.bavaria-film.de/index.php?id=350&news=8979 (German)