Should prostitution be legal?

[dann]

I'm 32 years old, I'm still a virgin (my Catholic upbringing and frigid ex-girlfriend saw to that),

Well, blaming your upbringing and ex-girlfriend is rather lame, isn’t it? I know a lot of (ex-)Catholics who did not seem to have much of a problem with their upbringing, and your ex-girlfriend only prevented you from having sex because you counted on getting some one day if you stayed true her – frigid or not.

and I want to have sexual intercourse at least once before I die (hopefully soon).

I hope that you are talking about having sex and not about dying! Very natural, and I hope that you will have sex soon – and with somebody who finds pleasure in the deed.

Since no woman I find attractive will have sex with me WITHOUT compensation because I'm so butt ugly, I'm going to have pay for it.

I'd rather not end up having to spend jail time and paying fines just because I wanted some basic sexual gratification.

Well, wanting some doesn’t send anybody to jail … Forcing it upon somebody is probably only enjoyable to true sexual predators – and you don’t sound like one.

Even fat, ugly geeks need sex with something other than their right (or left) hands. The trouble is, I have to pay for it.

Have you seriously tried other options? Flirting classes? Speed dating? TAM? Have you considered that your problem might be one of self-esteem primarily? (There are a lot of women out there who would describe themselves as “fat, ugly geeks”, but who actually aren’t!)
Or could the problem be that the women that you find attractive look like the Playboy models that you have enjoyed with your right and left hands?
Have you considered trying to meet women and to get to know them, which may or may not lead to more intimate knowledge?
I can personally recommend salsa classes. At beginners’ classes there are usually more women than men, they (well, most of them) usually enjoy dancing with any man who knows the rhythm and is able to lead them properly in the dance. The downside, of course, is that you have to learn these things, but learning the salsa is actually fun. It would also take the pressure off of you: For the first six to twelve months you would have to concentrate on learning the rhythm and how to lead which would give you plenty of time to observe and make conversation before you try to score. If you have waited 32 years, having to work on overcoming your problem shouldn't upset you as long as you can see some progress.
You could start here:
http://www.taketheleadmovie.com/
http://www.gilito.se/video.html (Gilito is big, but it doesn't seem to bother him!)

PS Never, ever beg! She does it for her sake, because she wants to, or she doesn't do it at all. Pity sex isn't good for any of you!

 

[andyandy]

snip

why is it "stupid" to ask what the best way is to regulate the prostitution industry?

 

[andyandy]

The serious fans of regulated prostitution for the sake of protecting the prostitutes don't have any problems agreeing with serious libertarians who would rather have the state leave the prostitutes alone to take care of their entrepreneurship. Everybody's primary concern is the welfare of the prostitutes and ....

the state should leave prostitutes alone to take care of their own entrepreneurship? You accept libertarian arguments? No state intervention or regulation? And you believe that non-intervention will allow all those women's business careers to flourish?

absolutely amazing.

 

[andyandy]

right,

either

A] prostitution is a job of determinism - ie. socio-economic status in the main forces people into a job which were it not for their circumstances they would not do.

or B] prostitution is a job of free will - various pull factors may be evident, but nonetheless the prostitute makes an active decision to earn money through this route rather than that of another.


prostitutes fall into one of these two categories.

Now in category A - these people are certainly being exploited nonetheless they rely on the market of men who pay for sex. if you take that market away can you be said to be doing them a favour? You've argued that their position is determined by external factors beyond their control. They are still all evident - if one argues such a position then the women have no alternative but the sex industry. Can one address the external factors? Only through social and economic change on a governmental level - and even then it's naive to think that prostitution can be easily ended.

category B - can we regard this as exploitation? A conscious decision to enter a trade to make more money available than in another line of work?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Have you seriously tried other options? Flirting classes? Speed dating? TAM? Have you considered that your problem might be one of self-esteem primarily?

I don't take advice from people who...

1. Call me an "idiot."
2. Quote totalitarian scum like Karl Marx is their signatures.

 

[dann]

#222. That was not the poll question.

#223. 1) It doesn't anyway, and I'm not a leader of state.
#223. 2) I don't usually, but it depends on the argument. I don't in this case.
#223. 3) The question is moot. See 1.
#223. 4) No. I don't even consider it a "business career".

#224. No, it's not a question of A) determinism or B) free will. The correct answer is C).
Prostitutes choose ... between very miserable alternatives! They are not usually presented with the choice of a) living like Paris Hilton, b) singing like Britney Spears or c) giving b.j.s to strangers for money. Only one of those is an option. And their conditions definitely won't be changed "through social and economic change on a governmental level". If at all, they will be changed in spite of and against the intentions of the government that does its best to preserve the mutually exclusive private property that secures that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor, thus depending on McJobs or prostitution as the very insufficient ways of providing for themselves.
So we are talking about a "conscious decision to enter a trade to make more money available than in another line of work", one trade being burger flipping, the other one d*** licking. They don't usually have the alternatives a) be a rich heiress, b) a much admired actress or c) married to a 91-year-old billionaire about to die of old age.

And for your edification: Exploitation is not a question of determination versus free will. Even the poor labourers in Asia who work 14 hours a day making trainers usually have the choice between starving and working for Nike or some other company. It's exploitation all the same.

 

[dann]

I don't take advice from people who...

1. Call me an "idiot."
2. Quote totalitarian scum like Karl Marx is their signatures.

Why should you? I am sure that the advice from Lonewulf about where to find cheap brothels lives up to your discerning tastes ...
You may even be able to find two crack whores with withdrawal symptoms and play off one against the other. That would be a very efficient way of bargarning, supply and demand, you know. Very libertarian, actually.

 

[gnome]

It's a simple matter of taking a job as a sex worker or not as a sex worker.

Could someone running an office building, for example... hire sex workers, that, by the way, also have some secretarial and administrative duties?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Why should you? I am sure that the advice from Lonewulf about where to find cheap brothels lives up to your discerning tastes ...
You may even be able to find two crack whores with withdrawal symptoms and play off one against the other. That would be a very efficient way of bargarning, supply and demand, you know. Very libertarian, actually.

I'd rather take advice from him, or most of the other people on this forum (even the fundies and the woos), than a verbally abusive, condescending, paternalistic, control freak.

 

[Alt+F4]

It's exploitation all the same.

It may be exploitation, but it's never going to go away. Assume we took a new generation of earthlings and raised them on Mars with no contact with alcohol or drugs. They would do fine without either. Dening them sex however would be impossible, it's too hard-wired within us.

Sure, some men decide to be celibate for their own reasons but you can't fight aganist prostitution the same way you can fight against discrimination.

 

[andyandy]

#222. That was not the poll question.

#223. 1) It doesn't anyway, and I'm not a leader of state.
#223. 2) I don't usually, but it depends on the argument. I don't in this case.
#223. 3) The question is moot. See 1.
#223. 4) No. I don't even consider it a "business career".

#224. No, it's not a question of A) determinism or B) free will. The correct answer is C).
Prostitutes choose ... between very miserable alternatives! They are not usually presented with the choice of a) living like Paris Hilton, b) singing like Britney Spears or c) giving b.j.s to strangers for money. Only one of those is an option. And their conditions definitely won't be changed "through social and economic change on a governmental level". If at all, they will be changed in spite of and against the intentions of the government that does its best to preserve the mutually exclusive private property that secures that the rich get richer and the poor stay poor, thus depending on McJobs or prostitution as the very insufficient ways of providing for themselves.
So we are talking about a "conscious decision to enter a trade to make more money available than in another line of work", one trade being burger flipping, the other one d*** licking. They don't usually have the alternatives a) be a rich heiress, b) a much admired actress or c) married to a 91-year-old billionaire about to die of old age.

And for your edification: Exploitation is not a question of determination versus free will. Even the poor labourers in Asia who work 14 hours a day making trainers usually have the choice between starving and working for Nike or some other company. It's exploitation all the same.

so you see no relation between asking whether prostitution should be legalised and asking how best to regulate the prostitution industry? Why do you refuse to answer the question? Should prostitution be legalised? Does your answer make you uncomfortable?

and if you believe we're talking about category b - ie that women choose to enter the profession rather than say flip burgers, where is your moral high ground? They by your own argument have made a choice for their profession - do you castigate people who buy burgers at Macdonalds? Or people who eat in restaurants? Or people who use buildings in which cleaners have been employed....? Any person who works for a minimum wage is exploited - is a big mac eater complicit in that exploitation?

 

[brodski]

Could someone running an office building, for example... hire sex workers, that, by the way, also have some secretarial and administrative duties?

could someone running an office building hire strippers that, by the way, also have some some secretarial and administrative duties?

could someone running an office building hire boxers (so that he could punch them in the face when he wanted to)that, by the way, also have some some secretarial and administrative duties?

The answer to all three of these questions where I live would be "no", I don't know about where you live.

(prostitution is currently legal here, but most of the activities that go along side with prostitution- including advertising it, or running a brothel or being a pimp are illegal- just to give you some background).

 

[dann]

so you see no relation between asking whether prostitution should be legalised and asking how best to regulate the prostitution industry? Why do you refuse to answer the question?

Because it's a stupid question that's trying to distinguish between two very bad alternative ways of exploiting poor women's need!

Should prostitution be legalised? Does your answer make you uncomfortable?

No, I like my answer ... mainly because I have not let you force your choice upon me. I know that you don't like it, but let me try to explain: If you ask me to choose between two different ways of executing people on death row, say, hanging or lethal injections, and I'm against capital punishment, then you probably wouldn't like my answer - and not because it would make me "uncomfortable", but because I would find the question stupid.

and if you believe we're talking about category b - ie that women choose to enter the profession rather than say flip burgers, where is your moral high ground?

Don't have any, sorry!

They by your own argument have made a choice for their profession -

Yes, a choice between very bad alternatives.

do you castigate people who buy burgers at Macdonalds?

No.

Or people who eat in restaurants?

No. (What do they eat?)

Or people who use buildings in which cleaners have been employed....?

No. (Use them for what?)

Any person who works for a minimum wage is exploited - is a big mac eater complicit in that exploitation?

By eating a Big Mac? No.

 

[gnome]

could someone running an office building hire strippers that, by the way, also have some some secretarial and administrative duties?

could someone running an office building hire boxers (so that he could punch them in the face when he wanted to)that, by the way, also have some some secretarial and administrative duties?

The answer to all three of these questions where I live would be "no", I don't know about where you live.

(prostitution is currently legal here, but most of the activities that go along side with prostitution- including advertising it, or running a brothel or being a pimp are illegal- just to give you some background).

I suspect not--and good analogies--but... WHY not? I am curious of the actual legal boundaries that establish this.

 

[brodski]

I suspect not--and good analogies--but... WHY not? I am curious of the actual legal boundaries that establish this.

I could (with a bit of research) give you the legal arguments from my country, but I haven't a clue about other jurisdictions.

But I suspect it will come down to "because eth law says so".
It could be easy to write a law which says that a job must be either 100% "sex work" or 100% non sex work. or it could be that prostitution is illegal except for licensed prostitutes working in licensed brothels, or any number of other legal solutions. As legislation would be needed to fully legalize prostitution in most jurisdictions anyway, there would be little problem adding such a clause to the bill.

 

[dann]

It may be exploitation, but it's never going to go away. Assume we took a new generation of earthlings and raised them on Mars with no contact with alcohol or drugs. They would do fine without either. Dening them sex however would be impossible, it's too hard-wired within us.

Mark has been denied sex for 32 years. It appears to be quite possible.

Sure, some men decide to be celibate for their own reasons but you can't fight aganist prostitution the same way you can fight against discrimination.

Like so many others here you confuse sex with prostitution. You are right that denying somebody sex, does not remove the urge. Prostitution, however, requires that a group of people are willing to sell sexual gratifications, and that is not a primal urge.
All it requires is poverty. People's urge to eat and their desire to feed their offspring is a very powerful motivator.
Making prostitution illegal doesn't eliminate it.
Give the prostitutes better alternatives (i.e. eliminate poverty, feed the prostitutes and their children), , however, and prostitution vanishes. It's been done before. Eliminate poverty, and prostitution disappears. When people are impoverished, prostitution returns.

 

[andyandy]

Because it's a stupid question that's trying to distinguish between two very bad alternative ways of exploiting poor women's need!

good grief.

We do not live in a utopian society. Sometimes you need to make choices between bad alternatives. Most people work this out at a fairly young age.

No, I like my answer ... mainly because I have not let you force your choice upon me. I know that you don't like it, but let me try to explain: If you ask me to choose between two different ways of executing people on death row, say, hanging or lethal injections, and I'm against capital punishment, then you probably wouldn't like my answer - and not because it would make me "uncomfortable", but because I would find the question stupid.

so your answer is "I fail to recognise prostitution!" It's wrong and i will not address it!"

faced with the option of leaving street prostitutes unregulated and prone to rape, pimps, drug abuse, STDs and abuse or regulating the trade to make their work safer and allowing outreach to help them out of such a situation, you'd rather not do either and just not address the option. That says a lot about you.

No.
No. (What do they eat?)
No. (Use them for what?)
By eating a Big Mac? No.

so you oppose people using the service of prostitutes, even though you regard those workers as having made a proactive choice over alternative options to make their money [such as flipping burgers] but you don't oppose people using the services of people who do flip burgers? Good logic there.

 

[andyandy]

Eliminate poverty, and prostitution disappears. .

and in the meantime, while we're waiting for poverty to be "eliminated".....we do nothing?

idealism is acceptable when you're a teenager - it looks a lot like stupidity in adults.

 

[Alt+F4]

Give the prostitutes better alternatives (i.e. eliminate poverty, feed the prostitutes and their children), and prostitution vanishes. It's been done before. Eliminate poverty, and prostitution disappears. When people are impoverished, prostitution returns.

I doubt there is any country on planet earth where prostitution doesn't exisit. Elimanating poverty won't make prostituion go away, it will only make it more expensive.

Some men can't or won't develop relationships based on affection and/or love, that doesn't mean they still don't want sex. That's reality. dann, your arguments against prostitution are intellectually based but it's a non-intellecutal topic.

The only way prostitution can end is if men's sex drives take a dramatic fall and I don't think that's ever going to happen.

 

[Earthborn]

Eliminate poverty, and prostitution disappears.

You haven't provided evidence for that. I don't even think it is a claim that makes any sense; many prostitutes are able to earn quite reasonable incomes (and some even large incomes) but that does not cause them to stop. Apperently eliminating their own poverty does not cause their own prostitution to dissappear.