Should prostitution be legal?

[dann]

Why are any of those acts "disgusting"? They might not be my cup of tea, but I don't see these sexual acts as "disgusting". Why you do classify S&M, bondage and homosexuality as "disgusting"?

I didn't know that I did.

Why is it disgusting? It's just sex.

No, it isn't "just" sex.

And may I point out that not everyone enjoys having sex with their spouse. Some people stay married for other reasons, and find their physical releases elsewhere.

Yes! Did you see me write a plead for marital obligations anywhere?

Not really mate. Many acts of sex have a payment attached to them, it's just not as overt as an exchange of cash.

That thought seems to give you a lot of comfort!

Yes, you are right, legalising prostitution will not get rid of illegal prostitution. Thus there is absolutely no reason to leave prostitution illegal.

You didn't answer my question: what do you think about a woman who hires a male prostitute for sex for an hour or two?

Why are you so eager that you cannot wait till I get to your question?

Dann, as much as you find prostitution replusive, do you think that it is better for it to be legal, and thus safer for all involved, or illegal, and run by the local gang or drug dealer?

I don't let you determine the alternatives I have to choose between.

 

[dann]

A sensible prostitute - as they all are in smart establishments - ensures that the bloke always wears a condom.

That drunken slapper at the party last night didn't.

The sensible prostitute versus the drunken slapper! What a beautiful argument!

 

[Rasmus]

That is the whole point, isn't it? As a prostitute you don't have sex with somebody because you enjoy having sex with that person. You have sex with him and pretend to enjoy it because you need the money. And, yes, that is disgusting.

How is that different from any other job?

It is the core of our society that people do things for money that they would not do other wise. Is it just as disgusting that some people have to sit behind a counter at a bank the entire day? Is working at a fast food restaurant as disgusting as prostitution?

Should McDonald's be abolished, too?

 

[dann]

How is that different from any other job?

Are you kidding? You actually don't know? Well, first you have to get naked with strangers, and not because you feel attracted to them. Then you have to turn them on and let them insert their penises in one of your bodily orifices. And then, of course, you have to pretend that you actually like doing it.
I have had many different jobs, but I've never had one that was even remotely similar to prostitution.

It is the core of our society that people do things for money that they would not do other wise.

Yes, it is a very bad society. I didn't vote for it.

Is it just as disgusting that some people have to sit behind a counter at a bank the entire day?

It's bad enough, but they don't usually have to take off their panties and be intimate with obnoxious clients.

Is working at a fast food restaurant as disgusting as prostitution?

I don't know, but I guess it is probably worse than eating there.

Should McDonald's be abolished, too?

I won't stop you!

 

[dann]

Well, to be fair, I'm all for eliminating poverty myself.

I usually tell people to start here.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Dann, you're running off the deep end mate.

Firstly, you did state that S&M, homosexuality and bondage was disgusting here:

Denial, denial, denial ….
Lonewulf, yes, a lot of disgusting stuff takes place between ’consenting adults’.

So, unless you wish to retract this statement, you basically are claiming that various sex acts send roiling waves of horror through your consciousness. You want to grow up a little there, mate?

Secondly, I fail to see how paying for sex is the hideous act you are trying to make it out to be. Some people are not as lucky as you, and don't have gorgeous Scandinavian beauties just throwing themselves at their feet. Or they may have issues with finding a partner, such as a mental or physical disability. Regardless, personal revulsion is not the correct basis for rational decisions.

Thirdly, you've not shown that keeping prostitution illegal is preferrable to legalising it. Putting aside personal preferences, you'd have to show that there was some overriding reason for keeping it illegal.

Finally, even if you personally find it horrible, disgusting, revolting, etc., etc., many other people - on both sides of the transaction - do not. You have no right to force your morality on others, regardless of how "right" you think your morality is.

My conclusions are that you have not supported your side of the debate. You need to come up with concrete reasons why prostitution should remain illegal beyond "it's icky".

And let me point out that not every act of prostitution involves:

Are you kidding? You actually don't know? Well, first you have to get naked with strangers, and not because you feel attracted to them. Then you have to turn them on and let them insert their penises in one of your bodily orifices. And then, of course, you have to pretend that you actually like doing it.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[nightwind]

This is an easy one. Yes, should be legalized. Can think of many more reasons for it than against it, so yes. Let's do it.

 

[brodski]

Are you kidding? You actually don't know? Well, first you have to get naked with strangers, and not because you feel attracted to them. Then you have to turn them on and let them insert their penises in one of your bodily orifices. And then, of course, you have to pretend that you actually like doing it.
I have had many different jobs, but I've never had one that was even remotely similar to prostitution.

If you find prostitution so bad, don't become a prostitute- end of problem.
I still don't see why the fact that you find it disgusting should mean that those that choose to become prostitutes should be sent to gaol.

 

[pgwenthold]

That does not change the fact that this line of business is unpleasant and disgusting,

So is cleaning toilets at the bus station.

Is that a bad profession? Should we make it illegal?

Of course, as others have indicated, your claim is not even necessarily justified.

 

[Lonewulf]

So is cleaning toilets at the bus station.

Is that a bad profession? Should we make it illegal?

Uh, yeah, it is a bad profession.

No, it shouldn't be made illegal, but I don't think that anyone really wants to take that job.

 

[Lonewulf]

Lonewulf, yes, a lot of disgusting stuff takes place between ’consenting adults’. The masochist, however, agrees to the SM act for the sake of his/her own pleasure (that the Ms have this need to pretend that it isn’t for their pleasure doesn’t change the fact), the prostitute does not.

?????

First of all, the prostitute is consenting, by definition. Someone gives her money, she lets him bang her.

But are you saying that you're okay with prostitution if the women that becomes prostitutes are just naturally sluts, or are in on it for the pleasure of it? Can you really say that this isn't the case for any women that are prostitutes? There seems to be a lot of assumptions here.

You pay the prostitute to overcome her revulsion. I don’t think the sadist (usually) pays the masochist.

And if they did, it automatically becomes non-consentual? I don't think that I agree with that.

The prostitute can always say "no". Especially the high-class ones.

I, for one, never claimed that it did!

Alright, fair enough. My apologies.

And how exactly would that change the fact that "they have no other choice"? It wouldn’t!

????

But it would stop them from suffering in their job. And it ensures a higher likelihood that it's consentual (I.E., they're banging people that they like).

Why is that wrong?

EXACTLY!!! Now we're getting somewhere!

But what if not all prostitutes "needed" to become prostitutes?

They usually have more than one option – all of them bad!

But I don't agree with this.

I know one girl who put herself through strip clubs to help pay for her education to put herself through law school. If you didn't know, strip clubs are places where women declothe in front of slavering men for cash. She makes good cash, and had several choices available to her, including working at McDonalds, or at a car wash, or any other job. I wouldn't call those jobs entirely bad, and yet she chose to become an "exotic dancer".

Good work? Is it good work to have sex with people that revolt you, but with an employer who earns money from your ‘services’ and in return sees to it that you don’t use drugs to overcome your revulsion and check up on you so you don’t pass on STDs to the johns?! Really a wonderful, humane arrangement!

1) I didn't say that prostitution was good work. Read my post again. Though, quite frankly, I don't have your stereotyped view of prostitution when I talk, so we're at somewhat of an impasse.

2) If you arrest someone, that gives them a CRIMINAL RECORD. You try getting a good job with one. And a GOOD job is the stuff that you define as NOT being a prostitute. That's me making another case against making it illegal, in case you didn't notice; while that's not your claim, it probably doesn't really count as much of an argument against your point, but I still want to be clear here.

Also, what's your evidence that all prostitutes "take drugs to overcome their revulsion"? I was under the impression that, those exposed to drugs, were done so so that they could be kept on a leashe by their pimps. Get them hooked, and they won't have any reason to leave. And, plus, if you make prostitution illegal, then guess what? With good regulation and no illegal pimps, the drug issue goes away. Look at that! Because, you know, drugs are actually illegal, and if you legalize prostitution, then there's less of a reason for prostitutes to actually take them.

Also, passing on STDs? So would you want to stop "swingers" from being able to swing? There's STDs there -- is the passing of STDs your issue? Then why aren't you for banning people from consensual sex? You can still get STDs from those.

 

[Lonewulf]

You assume a lot.

'You are an ugly bastard, I hate what I'm doing with you so much that I have to take drugs, and when I yell that I'm coming, I'm only play-acting to boost your ego and make you come. That's what you pay me for!' Or isn't that the "Simple sexual gratification" you are thinking of?
No, I probably wouldn't. Leave your masturbation fantasies behind and get back to reality, Atheist!

Ow. My irony meter just blew up my brain. You assume a lot, too. You seem to have been making assumptions since the beginning of this.

How the hell isn't this is an assumption? Are you saying that prostitution is entirely okay if it's a hot man hiring the woman?

 

[dann]

Are you saying that prostitution is entirely okay if it's a hot man hiring the woman?

No, and I have no idea how you reach that conclusion.

 

[Lonewulf]

No, and I have no idea how you reach that conclusion.

I don't understand your objection.

You have a problem when a prostitute has sex with some ugly businessman that she doesn't want to have sex with -- but what if it's some hot guy that she finds attractive?

If you don't find it okay then, then you're being inconsistent with your argument.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

I'm sorry, but I never had to pay somebody to have sex with me.

Have you ever took a girl out for dinner or a movie and scored at the end?

Are you married?

If so, you've paid for sex. Stop fooling yourself.

Did I say that it was?

No, I was asking you a question.

I said that???!

You said:

Yes, and sometimes it's even required that the prostitutes are tested for more than STDs! I think that says everything about this line of business.

I think your implication is clear: That prostitution is "bad" because it's a source STDs. Unless you want to claim otherwise, it is usually a tendency for people to demand that "bad" things be forbidden by the government.

Remember what we are talking about: Whether prostitution should be legalized.

You cannot see that you are being an idiot?

I have reported this statement to the moderators.

The people who are so very interested in the question legal/illegal are the ones who want the state to regulate this arrangement. I'm not one of them.

I'm very interested in the legal questions behind this and other consensual arrangements, and I don't want to see it regulated, this is. At least not to the point where people are tossed into jail for it.

And I'm probably the only one in this thread who isn't!

Then why are you here?

Being so bad off that having sex with somebody you don't feel attracted to seems like a good idea. That is bad!

Why is that any of your, or the government's, business?

Who are you to define what is "good" or "bad" for the rest of us?

Being so caught up in the two bad alternatives, legal or forbidden prostitution, that you are unable to read and understand what other people write is bad!

I understood you, loud and clear.

 

[Lonewulf]

Trefeis A. Kram...

Dude, I like your new name. It sounds spiffy.

 

[dann]

First of all, the prostitute is consenting, by definition. Someone gives her money, she lets him bang her.

Yes, she is consenting based on the economic necessities that force her to make a choice between bad alternatives.

But are you saying that you're okay with prostitution if the women that becomes prostitutes are just naturally sluts, or are in on it for the pleasure of it?

No, and nobody is: If she is in it for the pleasure, I'm sure that she is welcome in the local swingers club or singles bar.

And if they did, it automatically becomes non-consentual?

No, in particular not according to your definition of consensual

The prostitute can always say "no". Especially the high-class ones.

Some have more of a choice than others. The crack whore with withdrawal symptoms doesn't have a lot.

But it would stop them from suffering in their job. And it ensures a higher likelihood that it's consentual (I.E., they're banging people that they like).

No, it wouldn't. It would just eliminate a couple of the side effects. And it doesn't mean that will only 'bang people they like'.

But what if not all prostitutes "needed" to become prostitutes?

What if they didn't?

But I don't agree with this.

I know one girl who put herself through strip clubs to help pay for her education to put herself through law school. If you didn't know, strip clubs are places where women declothe in front of slavering men for cash. She makes good cash, and had several choices available to her, including working at McDonalds, or at a car wash, or any other job. I wouldn't call those jobs entirely bad, and yet she chose to become an "exotic dancer".

I notice that it has now come down to the subtle distinction between bad options and not "entirely bad" jobs.
Thank you!

1) I didn't say that prostitution was good work. Read my post again. Though, quite frankly, I don't have your stereotyped view of prostitution when I talk, so we're at somewhat of an impasse.

2) If you arrest someone, that gives them a CRIMINAL RECORD. You try getting a good job with one. And a GOOD job is the stuff that you define as NOT being a prostitute. That's me making another case against making it illegal, in case you didn't notice; while that's not your claim, it probably doesn't really count as much of an argument against your point, but I still want to be clear here.

Also, what's your evidence that all prostitutes "take drugs to overcome their revulsion"? I was under the impression that, those exposed to drugs, were done so so that they could be kept on a leashe by their pimps. Get them hooked, and they won't have any reason to leave. And, plus, if you make prostitution illegal, then guess what? With good regulation and no illegal pimps, the drug issue goes away. Look at that! Because, you know, drugs are actually illegal, and if you legalize prostitution, then there's less of a reason for prostitutes to actually take them.

1) No, you seem to be saying that the alternative options are not entirely bad.
3) a) Where did I claim that "all prostitutes" take drugs?
3) b) So if you legalise drugs, the problem is solved?

Also, passing on STDs? So would you want to stop "swingers" from being able to swing? There's STDs there -- is the passing of STDs your issue? Then why aren't you for banning people from consensual sex? You can still get STDs from those.

I was not the one to bring up STDs, sorry! Does poverty force any of the swingers to swing?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Trefeis A. Kram...

Dude, I like your new name. It sounds spiffy.

Thanks, fluwenol, I think I'll use it for my next Traveller character.

 

[dann]

If you find prostitution so bad, don't become a prostitute- end of problem.
I still don't see why the fact that you find it disgusting should mean that those that choose to become prostitutes should be sent to gaol.

Neither do I. Where did I say that they should be sent to jail?
From the very beginning my point has been to make it clear what the 'choice' consists of. So far the links and personal anecdotes of some of the fans of prostitution have been very helpful ...

 

[Lonewulf]

Yes, she is consenting based on the economic necessities that force her to make a choice between bad alternatives.
No, and nobody is: If she is in it for the pleasure, I'm sure that she is welcome in the local swingers club or singles bar.

And not get any cash out of it? Why not?

So she can go and screw anyone she wants, but as soon as she makes money off of it, it's wrong?

If she goes to swinger bars, she might be exposed to drugs. One of your problems with prostitutes was drugs.

If she goes to swinger bars, she might get an STD. You stated that as a reason to be against prostitution.

I don't get why you're being inconsistent here. As soon as money exchanges hands, it magically changes?