Peace Plan - "Accept it or face more violence."

Actually, the UN enforces jack feces - violence comes, they cut and run.
Second, while there may be something called International Law, and under it keeping territory gained in war may be illegal, but it is exactly as important as it's enforcement mechanism - and frankly, most countries do not want it to be enforceable because that might backfire on them.

People keep missing the point on the land gained in war preposition as it relates to this conflict. Palastine was never a internationaly recognized state and still is not. they do hold observer status at the U.N. becuase the U.N. does support the creation of a palistinian state. but the notion that Israel has to give up all land it won during the wars does not apply since the law of territorial integrity does not apply because Palastine was not a state. The Arabs messed up big time by not excepting the U.N. demarcation in 1948 if they had then they would stand on legal ground.
 
People keep missing the point on the land gained in war preposition as it relates to this conflict. Palastine was never a internationaly recognized state and still is not. they do hold observer status at the U.N. becuase the U.N. does support the creation of a palistinian state. but the notion that Israel has to give up all land it won during the wars does not apply since the law of territorial integrity does not apply since Palastine was not a state. The Arabs messed up big time by not excepting the U.N. demarcation in 1948 if they had then they would stand on legal ground.

U.N. Resolution 242 does not agree with you.
 
U.N. Resolution 242 does not agree with you.

That resolution is backed with what substance? A finger shaking?

ETA: I recommend you refer to it as UNSCR 242 or UN Security Council Resolution 242, to ensure you differentiate it from the typically empty General Assembly resolutions. A Security Council resolution occasionally gets a (non-vetoed) call for action attached to it, when nations decide to enforce one. The reason they are not always enforced? Conflict of aims and interests among nations.

ETA 2: Further note that failure to adhere to its language is a problem with the Pal side as well as the Israeli side:

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"
"Termination of all claims or states of belligerency"
and respect for the right of every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognised boundaries.

The Hamas style "Israel will go away" position hardly furthers this resolution's resolution. :)

"Egypt, Jordan, Israel and Lebanon entered into consultations with the UN Special respresentative over the implementation of 242. However, Syria the other state concerned did not at that time or later accept the resolution."
(source is a quick stab at wiki)

DR
 
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U.N. Resolution 242 does not agree with you.


Actually it does since it relates to the land that did belong to Egypt and Syria of which the egyptian land has been returned. The Syrian land however has not but I believe would have been by now if Syria had not remained such a virulent enemy of Israel. Palastine did not belong to any of those countries though Jordan did have troops in east Jerusalem supposedly to protect the mosque.
 
The six day war was in June. The UN Resolution was in November.

One could further note that 242 was rather badly trampled when the Yom Kippur War of 1973 broke out, about six years after 242 was put to the UNSC.

ii)Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Gee, belligerency was restarted, by Egypt and Syria. This led to . . . let me guess . . . wait for it . . . more UN resolutions.

Self licking ice cream cone for fifty, Ali. :)

DR
 
The six day war was in June. The UN Resolution was in November.

the countries involved wanted thier land back, Egypt got thier land back Syria has not becuase they are still technicaly in a state of war with Israel. If they want it back I suggest they recognize Israels right to exist and make peace like Egypt did. Jordan didnt lose any land they they just got booted out of palastine as the proclaimed protectors of the mosque.

As I stated before the law of territorial integrity does not apply to Palastine becuase it was never a state to begin with........is that not correct? will you agree with me that it was not a internationaly recognized state? They gambled and rejected the U.N. demarcation of 1948 believeing they could still destroy Israel with the help of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

Well they were wrong!
 
ETA 2: Further note that failure to adhere to its language is a problem with the Pal side as well as the Israeli side:

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"
"Termination of all claims or states of belligerency"
and respect for the right of every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognised boundaries.



DR
I agree completely. Both sides must fully honour the resolutions.
 
As I stated before the law of territorial integrity does not apply to Palastine becuase it was never a state to begin with........is that not correct? will you agree with me that it was not a internationaly recognized state? They gambled and rejected the U.N. demarcation of 1948 believeing they could still destroy Israel with the help of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.

Well they were wrong!
Yeah, but there are claims being made to the contrary. Not my fight.
I agree completely. Both sides must fully honour the resolutions.
No, all sides. Thee is no both. All but Syria have complied with 242, though Israel has only complied in part. The Pals were represented in 242 by Jordan.

Palestine/PA was not a party to 242.

"state of belligerency then existing between Israel and Egypt, Jordan and Syria"

That the Pals split with Jordan (1970-1971) took them out from under Jordan's umbrella of protection, and formal advocacy. I find 242 rather useless for considering the Pal's problems. (There are other resolutions.) The recognition of the PA (was it 1993?) by the UN was a master political stroke by Arafat and his various allies, which ex post facto created a state in being, weirdly similar to the various "governments in exile" during WW II.

DR
 
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The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

:For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

:For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

:For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.
 
The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

: Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

Affirms further the necessity

:For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

:For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

:For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;

Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

yes and the return of territorial gains made by war in accordance to the laws of territorial integrity adopted by the U.N. can only apply to land that had a recognized border belonging to a recognized state. The resolution was brought by countries who were recognized states (Egypt, Syria, Jordan) and who wanted thier captured land back. Jordan actually lost no land but helped engineer the resolution in support of Syria and Egypt. As far as Palastine if you are saying the resolution applies to them as well they can make any resolution they want just like congress can enact any law they want but if it is not backed up by international law the world court can over turn it. In this case it just has has not been pushed that far.
 
What was United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 and what does it say?
Following the June 1967 Six-Day War, the situation in the Middle East was discussed by the United Nations General Assembly, which referred the issue to the Security Council. After lengthy discussion, a final draft for a Security Council resolution was presented by the British Ambassador, Lord Caradon, on November 22, 1967. It was adopted on the same day. This resolution, numbered 242, established provisions and principles which, it was hoped, would lead to a solution of the conflict. United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 (UNSCR 242) became the cornerstone of Middle East diplomatic efforts in the coming decades.

Pro-Arab sources often claim that UNSCR 242 requires Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and other areas. This is not true. In summary, here is what UNSCR 242 actually means:

UNSCR 242 calls on all parties to the conflict to negotiate a solution


It anticipates that Israel will withdraw to secure borders (not specified in the resolution) in exchange for peace guarantees from the Arab parties
The Resolution was carefully worded to require that Israel withdraw from "territories" rather than "the territories." This construction, leaving out "the," was intentional, because it was not envisioned that Israel would withdraw from all the territories, thereby returning to the vulnerable pre-war borders. And any withdrawal would be such as to create "secure and recognized boundaries."

How do we know this is what was intended by the resolution? There is a long record of public statements about how the resolution was negotiated and what was intended for it to accomplish.

In an article, referenced among the Sources at the bottom of the page, by Eugene V. Rostow (Distinguished Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace, and former US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs), the intent is explained in considerable detail. Rostow was one of the US officials involved in drafting 242 so he knows first hand what was and was not intended. He states:

Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until "a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" is achieved.
It was widely recognized that the balancing of the ideas of a territorial return with "secure and recognized boundaries" for Israel would mean that Israel would not be forced to withdraw from 100% of the land captured in the June 1967 war. There is a dispute between the British-American understanding of the wording of the resolution and the French understanding of the wording, but in the United Nations the binding version of any resolution is the version that is submitted to the voting body. In this case, the English version takes precedence over the French version.

Various other officials have commented on the negotiation of UNSCR 242 and how it relates to Israel's position. The British UN Ambassador at the time, Lord Caradon, who introduced the resolution to the Council, has stated that:

It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because those positions were undesirable and artificial. After all, they were just the places where the soldiers of each side happened to be on the day the fighting stopped in 1948. They were just armistice lines. That's why we didn't demand that the Israelis return to them.
The United States' UN Ambassador at the time, former Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg, has stated that:

The notable omissions - which were not accidental - in regard to withdrawal are the words "the" or "all" and the "June 5, 1967 lines" ... the resolution speaks of withdrawal from occupied territories without defining the extent of withdrawal. [This would encompass] less than a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from occupied territory, inasmuch as Israel's prior frontiers had proved to be notably Insecure.
A detailed description by Goldberg of the negotiating process behind UNSCR 242 appears in "U.N. RESOLUTION 242: ORIGIN, MEANING, AND SIGNIFICANCE" in the Sources at the bottom of the page.

Max M. Kampelman, former counselor of the US State Department, said in a letter to The New York Times on April 8, 2002, referring to "territories recaptured from Jordan in 1967, territories that Jordan captured in its war against Israel in 1948-49":

The United States voted in favor of Resolution 242 only after insisting that "all" had no place in it. The United Nations instead referred to the need to arrive at "secure and recognized" boundaries.
No one realistically expects Israel to withdraw before its security is assured. UNSCR 242 emphatically does not put any preconditions on Israel (or the Palestinian Arabs for that matter). Israel is perfectly within its rights to remain in place until there is a negotiated peace agreement acceptable to Israel as well as to the Palestinian Arabs. Israel moved into the West Bank and Gaza Strip areas as part of a defensive war started by the Arab enemies of Israel. Israel does not have to move out of those areas unless and until there is a negotiated peace that offers Israel security guarantees that make it unnecessary to keep control of the areas. Every terrorist incident proves that the time to trust the Palestinian Arabs has not yet arrived.

Despite the very clear record on the purpose and meaning of UNSCR 242, misconceptions continue. For example, on January 23, 2001 the New York Times was forced to print this correction:

An article yesterday about peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians referred incorrectly to United Nations resolutions on the conflict. While Security Council Resolution 242, passed after the 1967 Middle East War, calls for Israel to withdraw its armed forces "from territories occupied in the recent conflict," no resolution calls for Israel to withdraw "to its pre-1967 borders."
 
The Arabs messed up big time by not excepting the U.N. demarcation in 1948 if they had then they would stand on legal ground.
[nitpick]The Palestinians did except the demarcation[/nitpick.

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"
An interesting point is the lack of the word "the" before the word "territories". It leaves a bit of a loopholes for Israel: withdrawing from some territories is technically in compliance.
 
[nitpick]The Palestinians did except the demarcation[/nitpick.

An interesting point is the lack of the word "the" before the word "territories". It leaves a bit of a loopholes for Israel: withdrawing from some territories is technically in compliance.



territories is technically in compliance - not according to the legal scholars and people used to draft the resolution. they state that specificly "the" was left out for a reason.


The Palestinians did except the demarcation

agian no they did not they accpeted a truce but not the demarcation hence the reason they never became a country like Israel did. If you have proof to the contrary then please post it.
 
That depends on what criteria you use for "bad" what is yours? Numbers killed? religion practiced?

Typical, try to personalize the argument with a smear.

ETA: in my case... for that statement I was talking about comparative interest in ending hostilities by thier respective leadership.

Which was the context of my statement also.
 
breaking news...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/world/middleeast/30cnd-mideast.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in interviews published today that Israel would not allow a single Palestinian refugee to return to what is now Israel and that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugees, whose plight resulted from an attack by Arab nations on the fledgling state.


Will there ever be peace? :(
I would bet the over on no.

DR
 
Tellingly, the Israeli PM has the support of virtually nobody in the country today.
He is trying to look "hardline" in these "Headliner" pre-Passover Interviews because nipping at his heels to the right are Netanyahu, Lieberman and Effie Eitam, all of whom would make chopped liver outta Olmert if he were to say anything even remotely conciliatory towards the palestinians or hint at implementing the convergence plan, or any other plan for that matter.

In polls, "None of the Above" is more popular than Olmert!



Also--
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6239499.stm
Barak is back.
 

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