Conspiracy believers, answer me this:

[DavidJames]

I have read alot of them. I see another explaination but no facts. What are just 2 facts, thats easy right, 2 facts...ready....go.

This document has at least 2 facts, now are you going to continue being obtuse?

 

[stateofgrace]

What are some facts, don't tell me to search and read for myself because I have. What are these facts you speak of, and be paticular.

Offer your facts to me and maybe you will be the one to persuade me. I try and try but nobody ever offers facts that they say they have.

I believe you statement was

1st of all what BS? 2nd your quote above assumes that you are the final say on truth... very egotistical. You have an opinion, that's all. Unless you're gonna list those facts for me.

Yep, that is a fact. Notice I also said in the same thread that I don't nessasarly agree with them. I just agree that a independent investigation is needed since American citizens have issues and questions and they are not being represented fairly in the media or by politicians. It has become an internet issue and govt accountability is out the window.


I never said that. My position is that we do not know enough to come to a definitive conclusion and certainly don't know enough to call people kooks for questioning the Govt. Both sides are pretty much stone faced in thier OPINION. Both sides discount things with no real bases to discount them, other than rhetoric. Unless of course your ready to give me those facts.

FACT. Flight 77 as disappeared off the face of the earth.
FACT. All the people onboard it has disappeared off the face of the earth.
FACT. Their body parts and personnel effects were found at the pentagon.
FACT. The black boxes were recovered at the pentagon.
FACT. Lots of people saw it hit the Pentagon.

FACT. Flight 93 has disappeared off the planet.
FACT plane parts were found at crash site in Shanskville.
FACT the black boxes were found.
FACT. Body parts from the passengers were found.

FACT. The Towered were both hit by planes moving at high speed
FACT both suffered massive fire.
FACT both collapsed.
FACT the two incidents above are directly related to the third incident.

I could go on and on but it means nothing to you. You opinion means and counts for nothing. Most people rightly dismiss your garbage out of hand becuase it is the work of kooks, if I was to ask one simple question you will not answer.

What happened to flight 77 if it did not hit the Pentagon? “Oh well that is why we need an independent investigation, we need to know”. BS, you have been told over and over again what happened that day and not just from the USG but from many independent experts, from many independent reliable witnesses and from many engineers. You dismiss it, you choose to indulge in paranoid delusional fantasise and wonder why nobody listens you. You bitch and moan that nobody takes you seriously and when somebody does and shows you time and time again why these conspiracies are wrong you ignore and recycle the same crap over and over again.

the fact that every single one of then have been trashed over and over again does not stop you, this is simply something you ignore and instead to choose to call those who trash it non critical thinkers, slaves to the system or whatever BS you guys come out with.

Here is another FACT.

After five years and millions of man hours the truth movement have proved nothing other than the fact they are crackpots without a single fact to back any of their crackpot theories.

You hide behind your self righteous garbage that you are only asking questions and that you only want a reinvestigation into these unanswered questions, but reality is the questions are stupid. yes pal in the real world there is such a thing a stupid question, that is one that as been answered time and time again but still get asked.

And you wonder why a fringe group with nothing but crackpot ideas are dismissed out off hand. Figure it out.

 

[WildCat]

I have read alot of them. I see another explaination but no facts. What are just 2 facts, thats easy right, 2 facts...ready....go.

NIST NCSTAR 1-3C, photos on pages 62, 63, and 64 showing the dropped (sagging) floors prior to collapse.

Page 65 is a photo of the kink in the building as it starts to collapse.

Pages 58 and 59 show the outer columns being pulled in prior to collapse.

All consistent with the NIST collapse theory.

But this should be old news to you, because you've already read all this right?

 

[Dr. Lao]

I enjoy the kooks that insist the planes were holograms.

One damned good hologram if it can be seen in all dimensions as a solid object from on the ground, at all angles and from the air, and from long distances.

But being a CT means never having to be right, just throw out any conspiracy, and when cornered, throw out another one, and when disproven, just accuse the other of being a shill, in on the conspiracy.

 

[chipmunk stew]

I have read alot of them. I see another explaination but no facts. What are just 2 facts, thats easy right, 2 facts...ready....go.

Fact: the 19 men implicated in the plot have all disappeared off the face of the earth
Fact: several of the 19 men were identified by people on the planes
Fact: records show that at least one of the 19 men on each plane had taken flight lessons at the same flight school
Fact: the 19 men had financial connections with a known terrorist group
Fact: records show that some of the 19 men lived in Germany and associated with convicted terrorists there
Fact: the 19 men appear on the four flight manifests
Fact: the flight 93 cockpit recorder captured the voices of men speaking Arabic taking over the plane
Fact: several of the 19 men appear on a martyrdom video talking about their upcoming mission
Fact: Khalid Sheik Mohammed confessed to his role in planning the attack
Fact: Osama Bin Laden appears on video confessing to foreknowledge of the plot and praising its success

 

[DavidJames]

WithoutThinking is playing games now. He's defining facts to mean only those things he agrees with. He falls into the killtown CTists sub category.

 

[Gravy]

Is stop whining all you got. Stop whining. Stop whining. Stop whining. Stop whining.

Ok is that enough yet or do you have something to actually say?

Because your reading comprehension is deplorable, you have come to the conclusion that I only said "Stop whining." In fact, I have repeatedly asked you to:

1) Read the relevant posts slowly, and with the goal of comprehension; and

2) Please stop whining.

You have failed at both of these very simple tasks. I beg of you to stop embarrassing yourself and to give my suggestions the "old college try."

I know you can do it. You only have to care.

 

[Gravy]

My position is that there is a lack of evidence.

I get the impression that you're just trolling. If not, as others have mentioned above, the 9/11 Commission report and the NIST reports are chock-full of facts: thousands of facts that support the "official" version of the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

Without Rights, these facts are in writing. If you haven't read the reports, you should do that now.

If you have read them (and it's obvious you haven't, but what the hell...) which of those published facts do you disagree with, and why?

You will not reply with the reasons why you take issue with specific facts in these reports, which will disprove my claim that you are capable of such reading and reasoning. That will make me sad, but will not surprise me.

 

[Pardalis]

My position is that there is a lack of evidence.

But on the other thread he said:

Evidence is not facts.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Strong with this one, the Force is.

A somewhat belated welcome, my good Wookie.

Hans

Thanks Hans.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[The Great Hairy One]

My evidence? Please show me where I presented "my evidence" to him or anybody.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims that the Bush Administration was involved? And I mean evidence, not "ZOMGWTF I hate Bush so much, he must have done it!!!1!1".

If you do not claim that the Bush Administration was involved, why are you getting all hot under the collar at my statements? They obviously are not targetted at you in this case.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[beachnut]

Let me turn on the super twoof modus (I'm not 100% after the below, i have other ideas) and answer this...

The south tower's impact zone was lower, which means that it had more initial collapsing mass than the other one, this one should fail first then. It takes some time of course to determine this. The shock effect is better if more TV channels are on the scene with their cameras to catch the dramatic collapse with screaming people. Further the theory should have a basis; the fire weakens the structure during some time, raging fires do their job. The fact that some people start thinking why did the last impacted tower fail first (and conclude it is the collapsing mass theory) already shows that they did their job very well, even intelligent people believe it.

Do not forget the impact energy of the first tower was about 1300 pounds of TNT energy, and the second was about 2200 pounds of TNT energy.

That was a ration of about 6 to 10. Did you know 2200 pounds of TNT energy could break all the steel columns in the WTC? I have to check the numbers again but I am pretty sure that is true. I know the planes did localized damage but the energy of the plane impacts did a lot of damage.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

So please give me the facts that draw this conclusion. Everybody says read for yourself. I have. I am not a CT because I have not drawn an opinion on the matter because I do not see any facts presented. What are these glorious facts please someone tell me, please.

Uh, are you serious? You missed NIST, the investigations, the reports, the documents, the eye witnesses, etc., etc., etc.??

Trying to claim that "there is no evidence to support the theory that Al'Qaida was behind 9/11" is like trying to claim that the ocean is not wet because it contains salt. There are literally mountains of evidence, as presented by dozens of posters here. Even if you do not trust the people here to be objective, then do what I did, and do some research on your own. You'll very quickly see that the scientific consensus supports the Al'Qaida connection.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[GodSend]

Why has there never been a full and independent investigation of 9/11, where ALL questions and evidence were fully addressed? And why were people involved (Guiliani, Silverstein, Zakheim, Bush, NORAD officials, etc. not put under oath? And why, after so much evidence that steel buildings have never collapsed on their own footprint from fires, WHY are TPTB refusing another full investigation?
And why was the engine found in the Pentagon wreckage from the wrong plane? And why were the videos from the various locations around the Pentagon never released? And why were there FBI agents in PA only minutes after the crash? And how were the steel girders cut diagonally, if not by thermate explosives? And why was Bush not immediately whisked to a secure location when interrupted reading the goat story upside down?

Too many questions and not enough answers! Let's get the right answers from the right people - under oath!

If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, runs like a rat, has the DNA of a rat, then maybe it IS a rat, after all - even though it looks like an elephant to some people

 

[chipmunk stew]

Why has there never been a full and independent investigation of 9/11, where ALL questions and evidence were fully addressed? And why were people involved (Guiliani, Silverstein, Zakheim, Bush, NORAD officials, etc. not put under oath? And why, after so much evidence that steel buildings have never collapsed on their own footprint from fires, WHY are TPTB refusing another full investigation?
And why was the engine found in the Pentagon wreckage from the wrong plane? And why were the videos from the various locations around the Pentagon never released? And why were there FBI agents in PA only minutes after the crash? And how were the steel girders cut diagonally, if not by thermate explosives? And why was Bush not immediately whisked to a secure location when interrupted reading the goat story upside down?

Too many questions and not enough answers! Let's get the right answers from the right people - under oath!

Welcome to the forums!

The answers to all your questions, and more, exist within these pages. Have a look around!

(Try focusing on one question at a time if you want serious discussion and not just snarky comments.)

edit:

If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, runs like a rat, has the DNA of a rat, then maybe it IS a rat, after all - even though it looks like an elephant to some people

You must have seen Pardalis's example, yeah?

 

[DavidJames]

Why has there never been a full and independent investigation of 9/11, where ALL questions and evidence were fully addressed? And why were people involved (Guiliani, Silverstein, Zakheim, Bush, NORAD officials, etc. not put under oath? And why, after so much evidence that steel buildings have never collapsed on their own footprint from fires, WHY are TPTB refusing another full investigation?
And why was the engine found in the Pentagon wreckage from the wrong plane? And why were the videos from the various locations around the Pentagon never released? And why were there FBI agents in PA only minutes after the crash? And how were the steel girders cut diagonally, if not by thermate explosives? And why was Bush not immediately whisked to a secure location when interrupted reading the goat story upside down?

Too many questions and not enough answers! Let's get the right answers from the right people - under oath!

If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, runs like a rat, has the DNA of a rat, then maybe it IS a rat, after all - even though it looks like an elephant to some people

As chipmunk said, every question you ask has been answered in the past few days. Please do yourself a huge favor do a couple of things before you continue asking questions.

1. Review the documents at http://wtc.nist.gov/ and come back here and...
2. Search this forum for answers to any questions you have.

Doing both of those things will go a long way towards educating yourself and showing the people here you really do want to learn and are willing to pursue the truth with an open mind.

Good luck.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Why has there never been a full and independent investigation of 9/11, where ALL questions and evidence were fully addressed?

What's your definition of "full and independant"? What questions remain to be answered?

And why were people involved (Guiliani, Silverstein, Zakheim, Bush, NORAD officials, etc. not put under oath?

I believe most of the people you cite were placed under oath and questioned.

And why, after so much evidence that steel buildings have never collapsed on their own footprint from fires, WHY are TPTB refusing another full investigation?

This is an incorrect statement. Firstly, many other steel buildings which suffered fire damage have shown signs of major structural damage. Secondly, there is no comparison to the events of 9/11. Other building fires have been smaller, more contained and more quickly delt with. The events of 9/11 represent a unique scenario. This does not mean, however, that they can not be explained by science. Finally, the "TPTB" are refusing another investigation for several reasons:

1) The first one came to a conclusion supported by the evidence,
2) No new evidence contradicting the current understanding of events has been presented by anyone, and
3) These investigations take time and a huge amount of money. Without actual evidence why would they just repeat their work?

And why was the engine found in the Pentagon wreckage from the wrong plane?

What? This is completely incorrect.

And why were the videos from the various locations around the Pentagon never released?

*sigh* They were.

And why were there FBI agents in PA only minutes after the crash?

Minutes?

And how were the steel girders cut diagonally, if not by thermate explosives?

Um, a really big plane travelling really fast smashed into them? Jeez.

And why was Bush not immediately whisked to a secure location when interrupted reading the goat story upside down?

He was.

Too many questions and not enough answers! Let's get the right answers from the right people - under oath!

Heh. Are you just being naive about this "under oath" thing, or do you really think people actually do not lie whilst under oath?

If it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, runs like a rat, has the DNA of a rat, then maybe it IS a rat, after all - even though it looks like an elephant to some people

Your questions are straight out of the Loose Change video. I suggest you read Gravy's excellent debunking of it, in the sticked threads above.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[GodSend]

OH, TGHO:

Although I'm still somewhat skeptical, I think I know why you are TGHO All that hair must be preventing intelligence from penetrating your skull. Do consider that it is IMPOSSIBLE for any steel building (including WTC#7) to collapse straight onto its footprint unless ALL supporting steel girders are cut/thermated/melted/etc. AT THE SAME TIME on each floor and IN SUCCESSION from to floor to the next lower floor. The fires were in only a few, limited locations. It was a CLASSIC Controlled Demolition. Why else would Silverstein ask to 'Pull it'?!

If I were to list all the legitimate, unanswered or unsatisfactorily answered questions about 9/11 (with 1 question per page), the stack of paper would reach the height of WTC#1 AND WTC#2

You are either VERY misinformed or you are a liar! (or both)

And we haven't even got to "who did it" yet

 

[GodSend]

PS to TGHO:

Lying under oath carries more severe penalties than plain vanilla lying (if caught). Why else does Bush make such a to-do about not wanting Rove to testify under oath (about Fired Attorneys)?

Was Bush ever asked (under oath): "Did you have any knowledge about the events of 9/11 BEFORE 9/11?"

Guiliani, Olmert, Eitan, Zakheim, Silverstein, the JCOS, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Condi, etc. should be asked the same question. I would add Sharon, but OK, he may have trouble understanding the question. Olmert and Eitan should be allowed to take their oath on the OT (OK, the Torah then)

 

[GodSend]

chipmunk and JD:

Thanks for the Welcome and advice about 'getting up to speed' about 9/11 truth. However, do remember Who sent me - the Omniscient One As they say in GodZone, "Been there, done that!" All will be revealed in due time.