Iran attacks british forces

[JamesM]

is there any chance we did this on purpose to provoke an incident?

 

[Darth Rotor]

is there any chance we did this on purpose to provoke an incident?

Who is this "we," paleface?

Given the UK's stated drawdown plan, and Mr Blair's current political position, I have a hard time seeing him and the MoD in London buying into a deliberate ruse intended to give an excuse for the Americans to attack Iran, using British troops as the cat's paw.

Do you see it differently? If so, why?

DR

 

[rikzilla]

Who is this "we," paleface?

Given the UK's stated drawdown plan, and Mr Blair's current political position, I have a hard time seeing him and the MoD in London buying into a deliberate ruse intended to give an excuse for the Americans to attack Iran, using British troops as the cat's paw.

Do you see it differently? If so, why?

DR

Hey da gub'mint "did" 9/11....why wouldn't they do this right James?

-z

 

[my_wan]

is there any chance we did this on purpose to provoke an incident?

It's much more likely Iran did it on purpose. They get their primary power from inciting hatred for the US. They get to blame us for the condition of their people while living high on the countries resources. As long as it's someone else's fault they get a free pass. They even use child shields etc to hide behind and use against us when we are forced to defend ourselves.

Hey da gub'mint "did" 9/11....why wouldn't they do this right James?

-z

So you are claiming we did what I just said about Iran. When you get evidence I will listen. The evidence so far is no better than the evidence that the grey aliens did it. Look at the anti bush media. Don't you think a high powered reporter would sell their soul for the story if they could get the evidence? Do you think the "gub'mint" is that good at keeping secrets? If you really want to keep saying that list every piece of evidence and really try to falsify every one. Show the list and ask for help in falsifying them. Just repeating the "gub'mint" did it is a dead end even it were true. People say Bush lied about WMD then keep saying this crap without even trying to consider facts.

EDA: Not personal rikzilla. Meant as a general message to CTers.

 

[JamesM]

Given the UK's stated drawdown plan, and Mr Blair's current political position, I have a hard time seeing him and the MoD in London buying into a deliberate ruse intended to give an excuse for the Americans to attack Iran, using British troops as the cat's paw.

Do you see it differently? If so, why?

I have nothing but pointless, and eminently ignorable speculation.

I've just grown cynical about this sort of thing. I'm not suggesting this is designed to synthesise a casus belli, just that there may be more to this than simple "we were in Iraqi waters this is INTOLERABLE!"/"oops, we accidentally entered Iranian water, it was all an honest mistake!". Could be a covert thing gone wrong, could be a simple prodding of the Iranians prior to UN Security Council Nuclear Stuff, that got out of hand.

Or it might just be a mistake.

 

[JamesM]

Hey da gub'mint "did" 9/11....why wouldn't they do this right James?

I find your insinuation I advocate 9/11 CTs bizarre.

Something like how the catastrophic British intervention in The Suez Crisis was presented to the public is more apposite.

 

[The Atheist]

I find your insinuation I advocate 9/11 CTs bizarre.

Something like how the catastrophic British intervention in The Suez Crisis was presented to the public is more apposite.

Touche.

 

[The Atheist]

Has anyone seen a printout of the GPS of where this boat was?

Darth, you're the expert. The vessel would be using GPS, real time plotting and that there must be a record of it? That right, or am I a bit ahead of the Navy?

If so, the Poms letting everyone know would be a good start. If they were in Iranian waters, I certainly wouldn't be bitching about it.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Has anyone seen a printout of the GPS of where this boat was?

Darth, you're the expert. The vessel would be using GPS, real time plotting and that there must be a record of it? That right, or am I a bit ahead of the Navy?

If so, the Poms letting everyone know would be a good start. If they were in Iranian waters, I certainly wouldn't be bitching about it.

I don't have a plot. I am sure the Captain of the HMS Cornwall had a running plot of his own position, and the position of whatever his boat crews were investigating. I better not speak further until I have found or figured out positions that are well documented.

In an arrest/seizure of this sort, the disagreements tend to begin at "we were in international/Iraqi waters" versus "no you weren't, you were in Iranian waters" and since the upper Persian Gulf and the Shatt Al Arab have been under contested status on any number of occasions (the 1975 agreement considered) I expect that "who was where on whose plot" is a factor in this.

If the Iranian and Brit navigation plots did not agree (not sure if Iranian Rev Guards naval units use GPS plotting, though I suspect they do) this becomes rapidly a "he said she said" sort of bickering.

I do not know, and can only surmise, the relationship between whoever the Brit boat crews were inspecting to the Iranian Rev Guard, and any covert operation Iran was running.

This arrest may have been a preemptive move to preclude the Brits uncovering some Iranian skullduggery in the area.

DR

 

[The Atheist]

It all appears to be pretty relaxed on the water - The Independent has good coverage.

No precipitate action, she'll be right - bit of sabre-rattling at worst, it appears.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It all appears to be pretty relaxed on the water - The Independent has good coverage.

No precipitate action, she'll be right - bit of sabre-rattling at worst, it appears.

Good link, thanks.

Last night, Commodore Lambert denied his men had strayed into Iranian waters, insisting they were half a mile inside Iraq around Marakkat Abd Allah. "My immediate concern is for the safety of my people and their safe return," he said. "Everything is being done ... at the highest level of the UK government and by our coalition partners to ensure that this is possible."

Officers said they hoped this was an error of judgement made by a local commander that would be resolved with negotiations. "I hope we find this is a simple misunderstanding at the tactical level," the Commodore said.

While tensions at national level have been strained lately, the British insist that they have maintained a cordial relationship with the Iranians. The border is indistinct and frequently the Iranians stray close to the coalition ships but, until now, they have moved back across the diving line without dispute.

Commodore Lambert said: "We have a healthy, professional respect. We police and patrol our side, and they police and patrol their side."

I hope Commodore Lambert is right.

DR

 

[fuelair]

Perhaps this will touch a nerve with veterans, and if so I apologise in advance, but why would soldiers surrender to clearly unstable hostile militaries?

I can't speak from personal experience, of course, but I just don't think I'd trust the current Iranian regime to be humane. They're not humane to their own citizens, why would they treat foreign soldiers with any respect? I think I'd take the easier death by gunfire or explosion than whatever tortures might await. I often wondered the same thing about the civilians taken hostage and then brutally executed on camera by the various factions. At some point, I'd make a grab for the rifle, make them shoot me.

And then again, I've never been in the situation. And I'm no psychologist, so I don't know how people think under mortal duress.

It isn't people, generally, it is people specifically. As a rule, if there is any possible way I will do my best to take some with me - especially with primitives (fundies, IRA, Basque seps, etc, etc ). Many/most soldiers nowadays are not warriors, they are soldiers. Soldiers are trained to follow certain rules in certain situations - those rules assume all sides will follow them. That is not and never has been true - but the training still is done as if it is. The British soldiers did what they were supposed to(like the case from many years ago when two British soldiers were watching the funeral of some ira rectum, the crowd spotted them, broke into their car, beat them to death and left them in the area. BOTH HAD LOADED PISTOLS, NEITHER FIRED because they followed procedure. Had it been me, before the crowd got close enough there would have been an Irisher dead or with a major wound for every bullet in my magazine before they got me(and it would have been very likely I would have had extra magazines - always do with the .45s). I do not believe in going out of my way to eliminate people but I will not die for my killers without some return on it.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I can't speak from personal experience, of course, but I just don't think I'd trust the current Iranian regime to be humane. They're not humane to their own citizens, why would they treat foreign soldiers with any respect?

Because they're answerable to Britain for what happens to British soldiers. For their own citizens, they aren't answerable to anyone.

I think I'd take the easier death by gunfire or explosion than whatever tortures might await. I often wondered the same thing about the civilians taken hostage and then brutally executed on camera by the various factions. At some point, I'd make a grab for the rifle, make them shoot me.

I guess in that sort of situation, the hostages cooperate in the slim hope that they will be released. And some of them are, so it makes sense that someone would hang on to chance that they'll be one of those. What I don't get is people being forced to dig their own grave. At that point, the writing should be on the wall.

This is, of course, not true, which is why you are completely unable to substantiate it.

Just for that, I'm going to bump your "liar" thread in FC again.

Do you ever get tired of humilliating yourself in public?

In case people don't know what thread you're talking about: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2457072#post2457072

I've posted my response there. Here's the most important parts:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1243495#post1243495

Do you have any actual arguments against the following propositions:

(1) Desecrating Afghan bodies and then boasting about it is stupid.
(2) Not caring about the problems this will cause in Afghanistan is dumb.
(3) Desecrating the bodies of your enemies is a war crime.
(4) War crimes are illegal.
(5) The "Islamic world" was not indifferent to 9/11.

Or do you prefer to repeat your pitiable exhibition of gibberish, lies, hypocrisy, and distortion?

Or then again, you could decide that you've made enough of a clown of yourself, and keep your stupid mouth shut.

Me, I'm betting on the second possibility. But do feel free to surprise us all.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1244548#post1244548

I attributed no claims to you whatsoever.

 

[The Atheist]

I hope Commodore Lambert is right.

DR

No offence, but I think it's probably lucky it was a bunch of Pommies who were kidnapped. They're a little less likely to over-react, I suspect.

Anyway, I understand that St. Helen Clark is going over to sort it out. She's arrived in Teheran and if the Poms aren't back by midnight she's going to stay for a week.

No contest.

 

[Darth Rotor]

No offence, but I think it's probably lucky it was a bunch of Pommies who were kidnapped. They're a little less likely to over-react, I suspect.

Perhaps, there is some grounds for your assumption on that, given the Brit style.

Anyway, I understand that St. Helen Clark is going over to sort it out. She's arrived in Teheran and if the Poms aren't back by midnight she's going to stay for a week.

No contest.

ROFL, is this the old joke about houseguests, fish and Kiwi's smelling a bit ripe after three days?

DR

 

[The Atheist]

ROFL, is this the old joke about houseguests, fish and Kiwi's smelling a bit ripe after three days?

DR

Yep. If they're not sent back in the first week, she's staying a month!

 

[Dr Adequate]

Hey, Art Vandelay.

You yourself established a thread where you could degrade and humiliate yourself.

It's right here.

Some people are not interested in watching you wallow in your own filth. I myself find it funny.

Either way, would you please make an exhibition of yourself on the thread of your choosing, rather than sliming your dirt all over these forums?

Cheers.

 

[The Atheist]

Some people are not interested in watching you wallow in your own filth. I myself find it funny.

Doc, you probably won't appreciate this, coming from me and all, but I'm gonna chip in anyway, because despite our wee contretemps a week or three ago, I still think you're an ok bloke.

I think you're going overboard here. Maybe taking a few deep breaths, or calculating pi to a hundred decimal places might help.

First, I think you jumped on BPSCG unnecessarily, and he and I are mortal enemies last time I checked. (waves to Beeps, Beeps shoots back both fingers) I'd love to find fault with his post, but I can't.

Second, picking on Art Vandelay is like picking on the boy with calipers on his legs. At least attack me or someone who will just tell you to #### off.

Cheers

 

[Antiquehunter]

All I gotta say is I bet there will be some juicy consulting opportunities in Tehran in about 4 years...

-SelfServing.

 

[Darth Rotor]

All I gotta say is I bet there will be some juicy consulting opportunities in Tehran in about 4 years...

-SelfServing.

Yes, and the question is, in what fields?

*ponders learning Farsi . . . *

DR