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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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So if Patricia was in the know about a hoax, do you think that she's exhibited any patterns of behaviour in all this time that would support this idea?

Yes.

BTW, William, I'm not involved but I was glad to see the gracious apology. Again, I personally at this point of my involvement in the debate really try not to get too wrapped up in PGF minutia as it does make me rather nauseous.

There are more details than you can shake a chimp spear at. I try to be a student of the film, but it can be frustrating. I think that much has (and still is) been intentionally withheld from the public by various PGF believers and the principals. Virtually all of the physical evidence (film, film copies, Cibachromes, assorted still photos, etc.) is in the hands of, and is handled (i.e. distributed) by strong PGF believers. I have no crystal ball, but they only give up what they want to give up (though that could be everything in their possession).

Here's an old BFF thread by Roger Knights that is very much worth reading: "I gotta touch it to believe it": The Mysterious PG Film Time-Line.
 
http://www.cryptomundo.com/bigfoot-report/norcal-bf-tracks/

Fake wooden feet still being used....

New fake prints at Cryptomundo.

norcal_track2a.jpg
 
Back to Chris Murphy....

Murphy: Some of us seem to be of the opinion that this film frame series of Patterson holding casts was taken after he and Gimlin had left the film site. In other words, in Yakima. I have said many times that it had to be taken at the film site. First off, Patterson is definitely wearing the same cloths he wore when he made the casts and he is unshaven. Furthermore, we can see that the sun is shining. The two arrived in Yakima late at night on Saturday, October 21. So unless the shots were taken on the way to Yakima (doubtful) then the earliest time the sun came out was Sunday, October 22. In this case, Patterson got up in the morning, did not shave, put on his same film site cloths and had someone other than Gimlin take the shots. Of course, he could have simply slept in his cloths, or not gone to bed at all, but I don't think that happened. Now one other thing I have just noticed. If you look closely at the casts he is holding, they appear to be still wet. If they were filmed say 42 hours after they were made (i.e., 2 p.m. Oct. 20 to 8 a.m. Oct. 22), I think the plaster would have dried out more.

Murphy obviously does not know the true provenance and context of the cast display shots. He is speculating on the date based on the speculation that the casts are not yet dry. But his speculation is limited because he apparent believes the whole affair wasn't a hoax. I don't know how he establishes the assumed fact that those two casts really did get pulled out of "Patty prints" at Bluff Creek on October 20th.

It would help to understand the situation if we can get our hands on any known facts related to these shots (in addition to the visual information they already contain). Where and when did they first appear? What was the context and manner of their distribution? Is there any record of the principals making any comments about them? What was the known chain of custody for these shots? Who hold the images now? Do we even know if these shots were taken by a still camera, or are frames from a film?

More Murphy: I read in one of the posts to Loren Coleman's site some remarks relative to Jeff Glickman (seen here in February 1998) and his conclusions on the P/G film. First off, as to Jeff's qualifications, he is a highly noted forensic examiner and certainly more than qualified to perform work of this nature. Now, as to his controversial conclusion on the creature's weight, my own totally unscientific calculation using the weight of water came very close to his calculation. I spent many days on this and arrived at 2,071 pounds as opposed to Jeff's 1,957 pounds. As I recall, Jeff was originally at 2,050 pounds and then made a slight adjustment. Please note that I used a creature walking height of 7 feet, 3.5 inches for my calculations. I really don't know what to say here, but there you are.

Holy smokes! Murphy has Patty at 2,071 lbs. His last sentence is the diamond within the rough.
 
Here's Bob Heironimus walking compared to Patty. It kinda sucks because it isn't smooth or extended for either of them. The original video showing BH walking seems to be gone from the internet now. This brief jerky animation was taken from that video - which was much longer and smooth.

70e82b59.gif
 
KTVB news article about Bob Heironimus' confession about being Patty.

Heironimus says Roger Patterson and Bob Gimlin asked him in 1967 to wear a type of gorilla suit for their film and promised to pay him $1,000 after the job was done.

Roger Patterson's Bigfoot film was instantly in the media spotlight, and he charged audiences to see the movie and companies to use it for commercial purposes.

Heironimus says he never got paid for the job.

Evening Magazine tried to give his widow, Pat Patterson, who reportedly still makes money selling her late husband's footage, a chance to answer the accusations, but she had "no comments."

So what about the other Yakima man – Bob Gimlin?

His wife, Judi, said he doesn't talk to the media, but Evening Magazine did receive a late fax from Gimlin stating, "I was the only person with Roger Patterson when he filmed the creature. I have always believed what I saw was real and not a man in a suit. My belief has been supported by countless hours of research and scientific studies."

He went on to say he has never profited from the film and said "Greg Long's book is a crudely written fantasy account of Bob Heironimus' attempt to make a few dollars and enjoy his 15 minutes of fame."

Heironimus claims Gimlin told him something quite different when Heironimus said he was going public about the alleged hoax.
 
Web radio program tonight with Bob Heironimus, Greg Long, Philip Morris, MK Davis & Pat Holbrook. It's at 7:00pm PST, and is hosted by Tom Biscardi.

Bigfoot Live Radio Network

It sure is a strange theater and host, but I'm interested in hearing Patty Bob and Wildman Greg.
 
That radio program was very interesting. There is no doubt in my mind that Bob Heironimus was Patty, and this interview really solidified that. The show was disasterous for PGF believers and the state of Bigfootery in general. I hope the program is archived, as it is a must-hear for students of the PGF.
 
William, that graphic is great. The amount of effort bigfooties put into "proving" humans in a suit can't walk like the guy in the suit shown in the film reminds me of those UFO nuts who "prove" how the hubcap hanging from a string can only be a flying saucer with anti-gravity drives.

Your graphic of Heironimus walking kills all that in a second. Bravo.
 
Gbob, as I mentioned, BH has always had a funny walk. It's a combination of an odd stride and exaggerated arm-swing. It's no accident that he walks like Patty, because he was Patty.

That radio program was devastating for PGF believers. If PGF skeptics had doubts about BH being Patty, that show should have had major affect. I fear it will never be heard again, nor will any transcript be published.

But I did get one of my two wishes last night. I wanted to hear Heironimus in a live debate with PGF believers. That happened and the Bigfooters got stomped. My first wish wasn't and will probably never be fulfilled. I want to hear Heironimus debate Bob Gimlin. That was not gonna happen.

The host Tom Biscardi is a large figure. He is despised by most of Bigfootery as a fast-talking scammy showman. I didn't know what to expect and feared some sort of live debacle. Tom is actually quite social and cordial to the show participants. He was a good moderator and had to take control a few times when the arguments got heated. Biscardi made a point of announcing that he had invited Bob Gimlin & Patricia Patterson to the program. He spent several minutes explaining how Gimlin had dodged him. He only spoke to Gimlin's wife who explained that Bob doesn't do interviews. Tom asked to speak to Bob about it and the wife told him to call back when Bob would be home. Multiple calls went unanswered and messages were left. It was quite obvious that Gimlin was actively avoiding the invitation. Patty Patterson spoke to Biscardi, but declined by saying that MK Davis would speak on her behalf.

Davis is now more of a space cadet than he has ever been before. Biscardi's website hosts about 20 new MK Davis enhanced film stills and animated gifs. Among other new "discoveries" he has made about the PGF figure, he adds an astounding new close-up frame of the head. On the right side of the head above the ear is something that Davis is now calling a hair braid with a bone clasp. To me it looks like just another strange film artifact that suddenly pops up. Davis fully believes that Patty has a braid, and told the listeners that it looks exactly as such. Why would MK Davis think that? Because he insists Patty is not a guy in a suit, but instead is a "wild human". The film work of Davis is the basis for a new movie being produced by Pat Holbrook. Pat tells us that we will see Patty like never before, and that there is no way it's a hoax. He goes on to promote the film (actually a DVD) and give info on how to buy it on the internet.

Heironimus & Long know exactly why Gimlin won't do interviews or shows like this one.
 
Ack! WP, I'm now kicking myself for having missed that show but I'm very glad to have your commentary on it. One of my big BF wishes also is to have BG and BH in a room together being recorded. I am guilty of the following things:

1) Through sustained past BF credulity having conditioned myself to the point where I simply can't see a man in a suit in the PGF.
I find it a very annoying yet interesting perceptive phenomenom.

2) Having been quite sure BH is completely full of BS.

3) Thinking Greg Long and Karl Korff (sp?) are complete dicks.

4) Having thought that BG was not full of BS.

5) Thinking that Tom Biscardi is a complete huckster.

Clearly, the PGF is my point of greatest disgust with bigfootery and I'd like to get over that in such a way that I can renew motivation to involve myself more substantially in discussions of it. For the time being I will continue to be 'scoftical' to believers who feel it necessary to include the PGF in trying to convince anyone of BF existence.
 
I am very pleased that this radio program has been archived and can be downloaded at: Bigfoot Live.

It's about 3 hours long, so anyone will need to set aside that kind of time to hear it all. Much of the show requires already knowing about the PGF and issues surrounding it. Certain elements and arguments might be confusing to listeners who haven't been following the ongoing saga.

The character of Tom Biscardi is at least as interesting as any other participants - if not more so. He's a fascinating self-promoter who is something like PT Barnum meets Paul Harvey meets Cookie the Clown. It's hard for me to not like the guy for what he is; but many Bigfooters can't stand him and some mentioned not listening to the show because of him.

I won't give my full review of the show before others here get a chance to hear it. I will tell you that Heironimus reveals what Patterson used to make the fake Patty tracks. He used plaster casts of fake footprints to make the impressions at Bluff Creek. That's right - Roger used his own positive plaster casts and smashed them into the sand to make the Patty tracks. Drum roll.... now those photos of Roger displaying the Patty casts in a strange context, can take on a meaningful intrigue. He apparently brought pre-cast plaster "Patty feet" with him to Bluff Creek. We are also treated to some semantic games played by Bigfooters upon Long & Heironimus in the live debate.

MK Davis had posted some new images (many are animated) on Biscardi's site and you will need to look at them as Davis describes each one. Problem is, now these images appear to be unavailable. I wouldn't be surprised if weird stuff is happening behind the scenes which caused these to be now removed. They could show up again, I guess. Their links are still on this page, about halfway down on the left side. It's about MK Davis' "new startling evidence".

Enjoy!
 
That's awesome WP, good work. I'm going to have to set some time aside and sit down with a pen and notepad and listen to the whole thing. I respect your judgement and it appears some of my main ideas and opinions concerning the participants might be in for some major revision. Given Tube's circus experience I'm curious to see how he'd weigh in on Biscardi. You mentioned semantic games from footers, any thoughts on how Long handled himself? And MK's insane, right?
 
Well, I just put in the three hours or so to listen to this broadcast. I'm afraid I didn't come away with a lot of novel thinking on the subject, as I don't find the confrontational interview style particularly effective at allowing a person to lay out their arguments. That said, there are certainly points worth discussing.

As far as Kitakaze's question about what I think of Biscardi, let my answer that with a long, convoluted story...

When I was about 10 or 11, I was a fan of the TV show "You Asked For It". I thought about what the coolest possible thing was I could see on the program, and I thought of the Patterson film. I wrote a letter to the show asking to see it. But at the time, I didn't know it was called the "Patterson - Gimlin film" so I simply asked to see a "new Bigfoot film".

Amazingly, the honored my request! But unknown to me, Ivan Marx had gone to the show at roughly the same time with one of his goofy films. How do I know this? I read about it years later in Dahinden's book... Anyway, I tell all my little friends about this at school, and show off the letter I was sent by "You Asked For It". That night, the big moment comes, and out pops an Ivan Marx "creature" romping in the snow, and looking like his costume was made of shag carpet. I expected to be ridiculed the next day at school, but other kids were not as fascinated with Bigfoot as I was. I don't think they even watched the show.

Years later I see Biscardi is associated with Ivan Marx, so I simply write him off... But you can tell he is charming and well spoken on the radio, essential characteristics for his line of work.

As far as novel information revealed that was not contained in Long's book, I must say that in three hours I most liked Phil Morris' line about "ask Rick Baker". I've said it before about the "Minnesota Iceman" and I'll say it again about the Patterson film;

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT IF SOMETHING IS AN ILLUSION OR NOT, ASK THE ILLUSIONISTS THEMSELVES, NOT MEMBERS OF THE INTENDED AUDIENCE.

When top of the line professionals like Rick Baker, John Vulich, and Stan Winston state flat-out that its a guy-in-a-suit, we all need to listen, as what guys-in-suits look like is a known commodity.

There is in my mind unresolved inconsistancy still with Morris and Heironimus claims as to what the "suit" exactly looked like. How does the "dead horse" fit in with Morris' costume? Was the face mask made of leather? The breasts? How do "hip waders" fit in? Were "hip waders" part of Morris' costume?

Is Morris now claiming that what we see in Long's book, the suit apparantly used in the girl-to-gorilla illusion, was only one of several suits made by Morris at the time? I say this because of how Morris responded to Chris Murphy's question. Did Morris' girl-to-gorilla illusion suit have the form fitting look that we see on the Patterson film subject? If so, wouldn't it have to be tailored to each individual wearer?

I'm afraid I lean toward a position on this that lies somewhere between Mike Dennett and Roger Knights. While I suspect that what we see on the film is a guy-in-a-suit, I'm not convinced that it was Bob Heironimus in a Phil Morris suit.

As far as MK Davis goes, I think the "Digger Indian" business from a while back confirmed his level of crediblility... I poked around the web and found this page:
http://www.searchingforbigfoot.com/Photos_From_M._K._Davis

In which Davis promotes casts made by Don Monroe as having "dermals". Indeed, they show dermals, HUMAN dermals. Some time ago, when I took Bigfootery more seriously, I had a series of private e-mail exchanges with Davis, in an attempt to "warn" him that Monroe's casts were not Bigfoot. It occured to me that perhaps Davis had not seen them first hand, as I had, and perhaps couldn't immediately see that they were human. What Davis fails to inform his readers is that Monroe sent his casts to Chilcutt, who found them human. But the thing is, the casts are so obviously human that it doesn't take a professional fingerprint examiner to see the obvious. Why does Davis knowingly promote bogus Bigfoot evidence?

What we see here is something that Ben Radford talks about; the bar for Bigfoot evidence is set very low. As long as you claim that what you see on the Patterson film is not a guy-in-a-suit, your notions can be as off-the-deep-end as Davis' and still be taken seriously by many Bigfooters.

By now, it should be obvious for anyone with more than three functioning neurons that Davis' notions on Bigfoot are pure unadulterated crank and crackpot. Davis is now the unofficial Richard Hoagland of Bigfootery. Here is a guy who has the audacity to publicly imply that Heironimus is a "pathological liar" yet who obtained his own Patterson stills in a totally underhanded fashion.

In honor of MK Davis designation of "Patty" as a "Digger Indian", I should like to propose that all albino Sasquatches, such as the famous Lake Worth Monster seen here, be known as "Wigger Indians"

lakeworth.jpg
 
Wow, great story, Tube. It's really great to have your thoughts on the matter. We really do need to think more carefully about your 'ask the illusionist' point. I haven't taken the time to listen to the show yet. I think the fact that MK is taken seriously by some is really quite telling. Somebody posted a list a while ago of features that he claims can be seen in the film and it was absolutely ludicrous.
 
Somebody posted a list a while ago of features that he claims can be seen in the film and it was absolutely ludicrous.

Eye infections, dilated pupils, boils, shotgun pellet wounds, hair braids, opposed Paul Freeman style thumbs, rocks held in the hand, digging sticks, and recently, an anus... No, I'm not kidding.
 
Eye infections, dilated pupils, boils, shotgun pellet wounds, hair braids, opposed Paul Freeman style thumbs, rocks held in the hand, digging sticks, and recently, an anus... No, I'm not kidding.
:drinkspit: Absolutely bat$#!% insane. That is truely diamond.
 
There is in my mind unresolved inconsistancy still with Morris and Heironimus claims as to what the "suit" exactly looked like. How does the "dead horse" fit in with Morris' costume? Was the face mask made of leather? The breasts?

My understanding is that Patterson bought one of Morris' gorilla costumes and then modified it in various ways. Morris can see some of the suit modifications in the film itself, while Heironimus can speak of more details because he wore the suit. RP told BH that he had skinned a dead horse and used it in the costume. But BH didn't know exactly what parts used the horse skin (if any). He suspects that the face portion may have been this skin because of the stink. BH really had no need or desire to know all of the details of how the suit was modified, but he can recall certain details because they were directly related to his experience of putting it on and then using it. BH basically just wore the suit for "10 minutes" to make $1000.

There is some logic to speculating that RP did use leather (horse and/or cow) to construct the face and breasts. He already had expertise in leather-working by making saddles. He could have combined other materials with leather to create the 3-dimensional features that make up the face and breasts.

How do "hip waders" fit in? Were "hip waders" part of Morris' costume?

No. Patterson put rubber hip waders into the legs/feet of the Morris costume. It is this that gives the illusion of muscles & tendons working under the skin. It is very likely that RP also used a padded lining inside portions of the suit.

86055.jpg


Is Morris now claiming that what we see in Long's book, the suit apparantly used in the girl-to-gorilla illusion, was only one of several suits made by Morris at the time?

Correct. The gorilla suit shown in Long's book is not the model that was purchased by Patterson.

I say this because of how Morris responded to Chris Murphy's question. Did Morris' girl-to-gorilla illusion suit have the form fitting look that we see on the Patterson film subject? If so, wouldn't it have to be tailored to each individual wearer?

Morris' gorilla suits were never form-fitting. If they truly were, they would show a human form that is almost always far more slender and gracile than a gorilla. They were made as a one-size-fits-all, and the user would be expected to only trim the lengths of the arms and legs. The suits were supplied with extra Dynel material (probably a square yard or so) for various usages. Patterson's suit really isn't form-fitting per se. The shoulder pads, rigid breasts, pillows-in-butt and hip waders gave it an inherent form that was mostly independent of the person within. Any strategically-added padding would increase this effect. Yet, even with those modifications it would have limitations to holding the form. If the wearer crouched, bent over or made extreme arm or leg bending - odd folds or creases would spontaneously emerge. We already see that with the sudden fold that pops up across the upper thigh, and when the thigh material pushes up underneath the butt area. If you watch the live action (film or animated gif) of the right calf "muscles & tendons", you will see that this represents the natural folding of rubber boots/waders that are underneath. We are not seeing BH's own calf muscles beneath a tight suit. Instead this is produced by the rubber boots/waders which are bigger than Bob's own calves.

Throughout the PGF, Heironimus is upright and striding. That reduces the chances of revealing that it is a non form-fitting costume. It didn't work perfectly, but good enough to fool a handful of people. Expert illusionists can declare it a suit, but true PGF believers will not entertain that stuff. To them, a real costume expert is one who says it wasn't a suit.

I'm afraid I lean toward a position on this that lies somewhere between Mike Dennett and Roger Knights. While I suspect that what we see on the film is a guy-in-a-suit, I'm not convinced that it was Bob Heironimus in a Phil Morris suit.

I'm convinced it is Bob Heironimus in a Roger Patterson-customized Phil Morris gorilla suit. It was customized to make a gorilla suit look like a Bigfoot. On October 22nd, 1967 (the first time RP showed the film to Bigfooter friends), he created the visual image and template for what a female Bigfoot is supposed to look like. It was only what Roger Patterson thought should represent a real Bigfoot.
 
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You can't see MK Davis' animated gif showing the "braid with bone clasp" anymore. In typical Davis-style, he took a low-resolution blown-up still of the Patty head to make his point. Many of Davis' images are manipulated by color-filtering and changes in contrast, brightness, etc. You will see all kinds of weird things that appear on one still and not another (even when they are supposed to be consecutive frames). Davis found an odd film artifact on one image of the head just above the right ear. His file on this is an animation which starts with the head and begins to enlarge the thing he is calling a braid. It's done by stacking larger-and-larger magifications of this braid until it is as big as the head itself.

What does this film artifact thing look like? Well, it could resemble a hair braid to a person that wants to think it's one. It doesn't even matter to Davis that it isn't seen in any other frame. He engages in a kind of pareidolia using distorted images from the PGF. He sometimes uses sharp images or sometimes low-res ones to find whatever he wants. Even his animated gifs will use paired or sequential images of different quality and distortion.

As soon as I saw the "braid", I thought of Snoop. It's almost the same shape as his, but is located directly above the ear and is mostly horizontal.

tx_snoop.jpg
 
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