Couterpunch's article: What did Israel know about 9/11

[CurtC]

Given the close connections between the US and Israel (please don't shout "you see he's antijews!) in the recent decades

Yes, the US and Israel have been on pretty good terms for the past six decades. Before that, not so much.

 

[Dave Rogers]

This is one interpretation of the facts, though. As the article implies, the Isreali governemnt was not too happy that the US government was looking into what these guys were doing. A gentle pressure was applied and they deported them.

Politics are always complicated, and seldom transparent.

Your implications lack a sense of proportion. If there had been serious suspicion that Israel had either carried out a false flag operation against the USA or deliberately allowed a major terrorist attack to go forward, it would take more than "gentle pressure" to get the investigation dropped. Unless, that is, the US government was also complicit, and the NYPD, and the FBI, and...

Dave

 

[njslim]

Yea Brainster - I live about 2 miles away from the hijackers were staying.
This makes me a suspect? Here is section from 9/11 Commission Report

Rababah, who had lived in Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey, told investigators that he had recommended Paterson, New Jersey, as a place with an Arabic-speaking community where Hazmi and Hanjour might want to settle. They asked for his help in getting them an apartment in Paterson. Rababah tried without success. He says he then suggested that Hazmi and Hanjour travel with him to Connecticut where they could look for a place to live.77

On May 8, Rababah went to Hazmi and Hanjour's apartment to pick them up for the trip to Connecticut. There he says he found them with new room-mates-Ahmed al Ghamdi and Majed Moqed. These two men had been sent to America to serve as muscle hijackers and had arrived at Dulles Airport on May 2. Rababah drove Hanjour to Fairfield, Connecticut, followed by Hazmi, who had Moqed and Ghamdi in his car. After a short stay in Connecticut, where they apparently called area flight schools and real estate agents, Rababah drove the four to Paterson to have dinner and show them around. He says that they returned with him to Fairfield that night, and that he never saw them again.78

Within a few weeks, Hanjour, Hazmi, and several other operatives moved to Paterson and rented a one-room apartment. When their landlord later paid a visit, he found six men living there-Nawaf al Hazmi, now joined by his younger brother Salem, Hanjour, Moqed, probably Ahmed al Ghamdi, and Abdul Aziz al Omari; Hazmi's old friend Khalid al Mihdhar would soon join them.79

 

[tacodaemon]

Counterpunch's founder, lefty journalist Alexander Cockburn (of The Nation), has had a serious hate on for Israel for decades and it wouldn't be the first time he's been accused of having anti-Semitism underlying his anti-Israel sentiment.

 

[VespaGuy]

And Lincoln was shot in the Ford Theater, and Kennedy was shot in a car made by Ford, a Lincoln!11!!!!1 Conspiracy!!!1!!!!1

The week before Lincoln was assassinated, he was in Monroe, Maryland.

and the week before Kennedy was assassinated...

 

[MaGZ]

Assuming that the facts are as stated, we can choose from a number of scenarios-

1. The Israelis masterminded the 911 attacks in order to get US support. There would be a slight risk to this, naturally, as if they were found out that could lead to the destruction of Israel. And they had US support anyway. But still, it's possible.
2. Mossad had infiltrated the cell planning 911, and knew the attacks were going to happen, but decided to let them go ahead to get US support. This would have the same downside if they were caught out.
3. Mossad had operatives spying on Arab/Muslim groups in the USA, but had no knowlege of the attacks. A few callous idiots saw the attacks and thought Israel would benefit.
4. Significant elements of the account given are factually wrong.

Which version you believe depends on the attitudes with which you arrive. If you think that three thousand Jews didn't turn up to work on the day of the attack then (1) will seem plausible.

I would add #5
The CIA knew about the Hamburg cell before they came to America. The AQ hijackers came to America and the CIA asked the Mossad to watch them and report on their plans. The Mossad learned of the plan attack on 9/11 but did not fully inform the CIA.

 

[MaGZ]

Just addressing this one point: however, the fact that they were subsequently deported as illegal aliens (if I recall correctly), rather than prosecuted for terrorism or related offenses, clearly shows you that, after questioning them very extensively, the police no longer had any serious suspicions that they were connected in any way to the attacks.

Dave

Not so,
The FBI were convienced at least two of them were working for the Mossad.

 

[Thunder]

And this is according to the Forward. Funny how only the Forward has this. By the way, the Forward is not the most unbiased newspaper in the world.

 

[CptColumbo]

When I next visit a major american city, remind me to not carry any maps of the area andespecially to not circle or highlight any places of interest.

Oh and I shall make sure that all of my spending money is kept in an obvious location, such as a wallet, even if this does make it easier for a thief to find and take.

Oh and should some terrible terrorist event be carried out by an enemy of my country, for example the French, I'll be sure to not make any comments along the lines of "my enemy is your enemy" should I find myself questioned by the police.

Someone should consider updating travel guides with this important information.

I must have been up to no good the last time I was in France.

 

[Mashuna]

I must have been up to no good the last time I was in France.

Well that goes without saying, surely?

 

[busherie]

What is so intriguing about the fact that, during a time of great confusion and paranoia, the police followed up on every single lead they had? What evidence do you have that the police had "serious doubts" as opposed to just investigating the incident? How do you know that this incident caused the police any more "serious doubt" than anything else they investigated regarding 9/11?

Some of the people arrested in the months after 9/11 are still being held by the US without access to lawyers or their own embassies. If the police had "serious doubts" about these men, the doubts certainly weren't serious enough to keep the case open.



Look at what you've written and ask yourself why we shouldn't believe that you are working backwards from your conclusions. What evidence do you have that Israel "had some hints that a big operation were under way"? You claim that "many" intelligence agencies in the world had some hints that the operation was underway. What is your evidence for this? What evidence do you have that having "some hints" could possibly have helped to stop the attack. After all, the US had "some hints" that Bin Laden was determined to attack within the US, but having no exact information of what type of attack or when left us unable to stop it.

And what evidence do you have that Israel "by nature" has to deal with "this kind of threat"? When was the last time jet liners were hijacked inside Israel and flown into large Israeli skyscrapers? "This kind of threat" can't mean that Palestinians with bombs strapped to their chests on busses is the same as a 757 ramming an office building, can it? Not all terrorism is just one "kind" of threat.

This is interesting. You state that the fact that the police were interested in these Israelis in New Jersey is evidence that the police "had serious doubts" about their story. You say that all major intelligence agencies had hints about something happening on 9/11. You say that Israel has experience with exactly this kind of terrorist activity. You imply that if Israel had shared the intelligence hints you think they had, the 9/11 attacks would have been averted.

And then you back off all of your statements by claiming that you don't mean to present evidence and are just pointing out coincidences?

You have laid some serious charges against the country of Israel. Are we really to believe that you just intend them as discussion points and that you don't actually stand by them? Do you honestly expect to avoid criticism of your opinions by claiming, "I'm not saying, I'm just saying ..."? "The words just happen to be coming out of my mouth but my brain has no involvement whatsoever" ?

This is not a Paul Riser bit. If you are "just saying" something, I will assume that you actually are saying it because you believe it. For pity's sake, have the courage of your convictions ... even if your convictions are anti-Semitic.

Concerning the hundreds of people being arrested after 9/11, I would just remind you that the vast majority, if not all of them, were Arabs, not Jewish! That makes a huge difference. Three days ago, a Navy guy was arrested on treason charges: obvisously he is Arab, not Jewish (Note I don't discuss wether he's guilty or not).

Isreal does have to deal with terrorist threats prepared by Arabs. It's just obvious. They've had a lot of El Al aircrafts hijacked in the past. I never said they were used to aircrafts used as bombs! They have a good knowledge of Arabs terrorists network. Just a fact here.

When I say this is not evidence, I mean it. When you start an investigation, do you instantly have the evidence? no you don't. Most of the time you only have hints and leads. And you follow them. That there is no concrete evidence doesn't mean there is nothing to investigate. So plz calm down.

Many agencies sent serious messages saying we feel the system is blinking red, you should be careful. Let me remind you the numerous warnings Clarke was desperatly trying to pass on to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice:
January 25, 2001: Clarke Warns Rice Al-Qaeda Cells Are Inside US and Are ‘Major Threat’
Early February 2001: Clarke Urges Cheney to Take Action Against al-Qaeda

February 2001: Bush Administration Abandons Global Crackdown on Terrorist Funding

Between March 2001 and May 2001: Richard Clarke: Bush Officials Discuss Creating Casus Belli for War with Iraq


March 23, 2001: Rice Warned about Al-Qaeda Cells in US

September 4, 2001: Clarke Memo: Imagine Hundreds of Dead Due to Government Inaction

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=richard_a._clarke


Don't be so voluntarily blind. Let me go back to Isreal and 9/11.

"even if your convictions are anti-Semitic"

I have become familiar with these kind of attacks. When Carter published a book "Peace not apartheid" he also became "anti-semitic"?. Sir, I don't know what to say. This has nothing to do with being anti-semitic.

In fact, let's state it very clearly: I am personnally in favour of an Israeli State in Palestine, and a Palestinian State next to it.

I oppose colonization of Palestinian land. I think it is immoral and causes many Palestinians to use the weapon of the poor, that is to say blind terrorism against civilians. I firmly condem terrorism against civilians, it is immoral and counter-productive.

Overall I think that right now Isreal is to blame for not being wise enough to understand that they are going nowhere by using force. Didn't work in Lebanon, won't work in Palestine.

I stand or peace. I have nothing against Jews as a people. When I criticize Isreal, i criticize Isreali leaders.

Your argument, Sir, is pathetic. I refuse to be accused of anti-semitism, I'm sick of it. So leave it, and if you wish to discuss 9/11 seriously, forget about these kind of arguments.

Sorry for the long threat, but I thought it was necessary.

Busherie

 

[Firestone]

Concerning the hundreds of people being arrested after 9/11, I would just remind you that the vast majority, if not all of them, were Arabs, not Jewish! That makes a huge difference.

So, that most people arrested were Arabs and only a few were Israelis points to Israeli foreknowledge?
You yourself show why the constant rehashing of the empty "five dancing Israelis"-story is silly. Whatever the reason why it is constantly rehashed, it is irrelevant to the 9/11-attacks.

Isreal does have to deal with terrorist threats prepared by Arabs. It's just obvious. They've had a lot of El Al aircrafts hijacked in the past.

They have???

 

[CptColumbo]

Well that goes without saying, surely?

Well I did eat a pizza with my hands, which apparently is a no-no (non-non).

 

[westprog]

I must apologize for the very long post: I didn't realize it was that long until i had started the thread. Sorry for that.

Clearly, this article is not evidence, it has very few sources. But it hightlights a certain number of coincidences.

I think that as many intelligence agncies in the world, the Isrealis (who by nature have to deal with this kind of threat) had some hints that a big operation were under way. Given the close connections between the US and Israel (please don't shout "you see he's antijews!) in the recent decades, the presence of Mossad agents would not be a surprise. In France for instance, prior to 1960, a guy like Shimon Peres had direct access to the foreign affairs ministry.

Now, the evidence presented by this article, is again by no mean evidence, and would need further investigating.

Since the FBI and CIA failed to share evidence that might have prevented the attacks, it wouldn't be surprising that Mossad had some knowlege as well. The Israelis were totally focused on Arab terrorism, while the USA had many different areas to deal with.

However the fact that were arrested, questionned, underwent lie detector tests, clearly shows you that the police had serious doubts they may have been connected some way to the attacks.

And the fact that they were released shows that the police had no doubts about the matter. Arresting and interrogating suspects is quite normal. Letting them go after you find out they did something isn't.

It's extremely unlikely that Mossad had any prior knowlege of the 911 attacks. They may have had unshared or unused information that might have been of use with hindsight.

 

[westprog]

They've had a lot of El Al aircrafts hijacked in the past.

They have???

No, but that's because they've been very heavily focused on Arab terrorism.

AFAIAA no El Al aircraft has ever been hijacked. They have very, very thorough security.

 

[Loss Leader]

Despite the fact that you insist you are just raising questions and asking for a more thorough investigation, you actually do make many statements which you intend to be taken as fact. You also make many statement which you intend to imply guilt without actually saying so. This is a very weak tactic and I challenge these assertions.

Concerning the hundreds of people being arrested after 9/11, I would just remind you that the vast majority, if not all of them, were Arabs, not Jewish! That makes a huge difference.

What does this make a huge difference regarding? You appear to imply that the US has unfairly targetted arabs when there were Jews who should have been arrested. What evidence do you have that more Jewish people should have been arrested? What evidence do you have that the police unfairly ignored evidence of Jewish involvement? If you have none, then what does this disparity make a "huge difference" in?

They've had a lot of El Al aircrafts hijacked in the past.

Name two.

I never said they were used to aircrafts used as bombs! They have a good knowledge of Arabs terrorists network. Just a fact here.

What evidence do you have that Israel has a good knowledge of Arab terrorist networks? If their knowledge is so good, why do they continue to suffer terrorist attacks? What evidence do you have that any knowledge Israel has of Arab terrorist networks for its own defense in the middle east would translate to knowledge about terrorism inside the US? Since terrorists operating inside the US are no threat to Israel, why would Israel keep up with such knowledge? You claim this is "just a fact"; please provide evidence.

When I say this is not evidence, I mean it.

And yet you just claimed that Israel had knowledge of terrorist networks and implied that such knowledge extended to these networks' US operations. You claimed this was "just a fact." How can something be "just a fact" yet lack evidence?

Most of the time you only have hints and leads. And you follow them.

What evidence do you have that the police did not fully investigate the hints and leads they had regarding the "five dancing Jews"? What evidence do you have that this investigation was truncated or that there was ever any indication of deeper Israeli involvement?

Many agencies sent serious messages saying we feel the system is blinking red, you should be careful. Let me remind you the numerous warnings Clarke was desperatly trying to pass on to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice:

These are all examples of US agencies communicating inside the US with other agencies and officials of the US. Please explain how this is evidence that Israel knew more about 9/11 than it shared with the US government. Please explain how US intelligence failures mean that there was foreknowledge by non-US sources.

Don't be so voluntarily blind. Let me go back to Isreal and 9/11.

I am not blind. I have asked for any evidence you have to back up your multiple assertions of fact and your strong implications of Israeli foreknowledge.

Your argument, Sir, is pathetic. I refuse to be accused of anti-semitism, I'm sick of it. So leave it, and if you wish to discuss 9/11 seriously, forget about these kind of arguments.

As soon as you show that your accusations are based on evidence and not on mere conjecture, I will believe that your thoughts about Israel are based on fact and not on prejudice.

 

[firecoins]

I am curious. If arresting 5 Israeli's is proof of Israel's complicity in 9/11, than what does the arrests of the many Arabs mean?

 

[Pardalis]

I am curious. If arresting 5 Israeli's is proof of Israel's complicity in 9/11, than what does the arrests of the many Arabs mean?

I'm sure the twoofer answer goes something like "police state".

 

[PerryLogan]

I'm sure the twoofer answer goes something like "police state".

And they'd be right.

 

[R.Mackey]

No, but that's because they've been very heavily focused on Arab terrorism.

AFAIAA no El Al aircraft has ever been hijacked. They have very, very thorough security.

They have suffered hijacks, but not since 1968, at least according to the Wikipedia article.

It goes without saying that they are a target. Unless, of course, you live in Trooferville, in which case there's no such thing as radical terrorism in the Middle East, poor Arabs have been framed all along, and the threats against El Al are merely false flag operations.