Vote one, Irish culture

[SimonD]

Maybe, but the point is that once it gains "official" status, it has to be used for all official publications. So instead of concentrating the money where it is useful, like in that community, the money is spread across all areas, including the Sydney suburb.

I ask you what price do we place on a lost language? It is a shame that everything has to come down to what it is going to cost.

 

[Smidge]

I'm confused. How will the Irish language be lost if it's not officially recognised in Northern Ireland?

Irish is officially the first language of the Republic of Ireland - it's in the Constitution. It is already protected. Are we going over old ground here?

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I ask you what price do we place on a lost language? It is a shame that everything has to come down to what it is going to cost.

I think that is the wrong question, unless you believe that the ONLY way to avoid losing the language is to give it official status.

Otherwise a more relevant and real world question is:

"There is a certain amount of money available. What is the best way to use our limited resources with the intention of preserving the language?"

To which I am absolutely certain that the answer is not:

"Give it official status and send millions of leaflets/froms in Irish to people who have no interest in that language whatsoever."

 

[Darat]

Interesting discussion - thanks folks.

Language is a part of culture. Stories of history, people and places are all tied up with it.

One of the elements that has keep the Irish culture alive is the use of it's langauge, dispite the best efforts of an occupying country.

...snip...

Thanks for the answer but this doesn't really answer my question about which culture and why that particular culture.

Why is some point "800 years ago" the point at which you've decided a certain "culture" (which you haven't described) should be "kept alive"? (I'd also argue that the idea of making dual language a law will not keep anything from 800 years ago alive.)

 

[irishman]

I was only quoting yourself Simon from a few posts previously:

"I am just sadded to see the passing of any language"

"I ask you what price do we place on a lost language?"

In 1999, the languages services of the EU cost €686 million - a not inconsiderable amount of money - mostly wasted.

Half that money would be far better spent on promoting the various "smaller" languages, if that were the intention of making them "official".

And I shudder to think what that cost has risen to since 1999.

 

[SimonD]

I'm confused. How will the Irish language be lost if it's not officially recognised in Northern Ireland?

The language will not be lost if it is not officially recognised in the North. However, would you agree the language is disappearing and is being used less and less?

Making the language more widespread would promote and help strengthen it.

Irish is officially the first language of the Republic of Ireland - it's in the Constitution. It is already protected. Are we going over old ground here?

All conversations go around and around. Sometimes old topics need to be brought up and talked about again, to see if they remain relevant.

I think that is the wrong question, unless you believe that the ONLY way to avoid losing the language is to give it official status..

I do not believe that it is the only way, but I believe it could be one way, to help save the language.

Otherwise a more relevant and real world question is:

"There is a certain amount of money available. What is the best way to use our limited resources with the intention of preserving the language?"

To which I am absolutely certain that the answer is not:

"Give it official status and send millions of leaflets/froms in Irish to people who have no interest in that language whatsoever."

I work for the govenment, believe me I know what waste is about. In a perfect world there would be unlimited funds to protect all peoples from all harm.

If the language was to become the official one in the north, then it would be taught at schools. A whole new generation would be exposed to the language. Who knows, there could be a budding Gaelic poet out there, just waiting to hear those first few words. Pie in the sky stuff really, but you have to be in it to win it.

Interesting discussion - thanks folks..

We are not worthy!

Thanks for the answer but this doesn't really answer my question about which culture and why that particular culture.

Why is some point "800 years ago" the point at which you've decided a certain "culture" (which you haven't described) should be "kept alive"? (I'd also argue that the idea of making dual language a law will not keep anything from 800 years ago alive.)

I'm sorry if I have sounded vague.

800 years is not a time I just made up. It's more a term of reference used by some people when describing a particule time in Irish history. It would be like saying the 100 hundred year war. People will want to dispute where which event really started or ended, so it becomes a term.

I am describing Irish culture, which has\is been effected by serveral invasions, by the Norman/French/English.

I am trying to remain vague to some degree, because I don't really want to debate the facts and figures of what one event or another did or did not happen occording which version of history you beleive in. That is for another thread entirely.

I guess if you want to look at from an evolutionally point of veiw, we could describe English as overtaking Irish as a spoken language. If that language dies, then that is the natural order of things. However perhaps we could try to change this.

I was hoping to promote the Irish langauge. That was my only intent. To some degree I have succedded. I have also learnt that I should phrase my threads better, because being flippant causes one hell of a hoo-har.

I was only quoting yourself Simon from a few posts previously:

"I am just sadded to see the passing of any language"

"I ask you what price do we place on a lost language?"

In 1999, the languages services of the EU cost €686 million - a not inconsiderable amount of money - mostly wasted.

Half that money would be far better spent on promoting the various "smaller" languages, if that were the intention of making them "official".

And I shudder to think what that cost has risen to since 1999.

I beleive I have answered your enquires above. Feel free to ask me anything again, if you feel I have not and I'll have another go at it.

E.T.A. (goes for the cheap shot) Nice bit of Irish in this weeks comments from Randi.
(When you guys have finished throwing things at me, I'll come back out)

 

[Smidge]

Funnily enough, interestingly or even ironically, it's Seachtain na Gaeilge (Irish Week) in Ireland this week. Seachtain na Gaeilge is a promotional tool. More info here - http://www.snag.ie/

Yesterday was an important day for Northern Ireland - they were voting. Not surprisingly, the two most opposed parties have received the most votes. They will be forced to power share or lose the opportunity or a parliament at Stormont. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6433249.stm

Personally I'm glad one of the issues not on the NI agenda was whether Irish should be officially recognised or not.

 

[SimonD]

Funnily enough, interestingly or even ironically, it's Seachtain na Gaeilge (Irish Week) in Ireland this week. Seachtain na Gaeilge is a promotional tool. More info here - http://www.snag.ie/.

What do you think are the chances a petition, aimed at the Irish langauge would just happen to come out, prior to Irish Week and the elections in the North? I would say it is more likely to be by design.

 

[geni]

A chairde (Dear Friends)

I was wondering if anyone would like to sign the the following petition supporting Irish Language Legislation for the North of Ireland. Submissions supporting legislation are closing this week. Please take the time to put your name to the petition to give Gaelic official status in the north of Ireland and help rectify an age old injustice.

English doesn't have official status in NI. I fail to see why any other lanaguage should.

 

[geni]

The language will not be lost if it is not officially recognised in the North. However, would you agree the language is disappearing and is being used less and less?

Making the language more widespread would promote and help strengthen it.

That sounds like interfearing with natural selection.

I do not believe that it is the only way, but I believe it could be one way, to help save the language.

Why on earth would I want to do that?

If the language was to become the official one in the north, then it would be taught at schools.

There are more useful things that could be taught in schools. Science, maths, spanish, chinese.

A whole new generation would be exposed to the language.

I'm exposed to dozens of lanagues every day. Haven't learn't any of them.

Who knows, there could be a budding Gaelic poet out there, just waiting to hear those first few words. Pie in the sky stuff really, but you have to be in it to win it.

However there could also be Deutsch, Français, Italiano, Nederlands, 日本語 or Polski poets there but I note you are not proposeing to teach those.

I guess if you want to look at from an evolutionally point of veiw, we could describe English as overtaking Irish as a spoken language. If that language dies, then that is the natural order of things. However perhaps we could try to change this.

Why would we want to?

 

[geni]

And I shudder to think what that cost has risen to since 1999.

Trying to tell the french they from now on everything will be done in english would not work out too well.

 

[geni]

I ask you what price do we place on a lost language?

Wont be lost there is enough written matterial and dictionaries to be fairly sure that we will be able to read and understand it for at least as long as our civilisation lasts.

 

[SimonD]

Geni,

Maybe you should read the entire thread before posting. I have answered all these questions already.

If you feel I have not done this, then post an orignal question.

 

[geni]

Geni,

Maybe you should read the entire thread before posting.

I have answered all these questions already.

If you feel I have not done this, then post an orignal question.

Why should we interfere with natural selection amoung languages and cultures? frankly your hand waveing so far has been unconvincing

 

[SimonD]

Why should we interfere with natural selection amoung languages and cultures?

Easy to say when it's your langauge that is the dominating language.

I believe we should endovour to presevre as many cultures and langauges as possible.

If you want to take the evolutional analogy further, the death of one species can weaken a food chain.

frankly your hand waveing so far has been unconvincing

Vote for it, don't vote for it. I just presented you with a choice and if you have read the entire thread, you will already see I have given my opinion as to why I think you may want sign it.

"hand wavering" - not fimilar with this phrase, though in the context it is writen, I would say you are attempting to insult me. There is no need to do so.

 

[geni]

Easy to say when it's your langauge that is the dominating language.

English isn't my language. English doesn't belong to anyone any more.

I believe we should endovour to presevre as many cultures and langauges as possible.

Wiping out the Thuggee was hard enough the first time I'd rather it didn’t have to be done again.

If you want to take the evolutional analogy further, the death of one species can weaken a food chain.

English has never had any problem taking words from dead languages.

 

[SimonD]

English isn't my language. English doesn't belong to anyone any more..

You are being pedantic about the word 'your'. It was clear what I meant.

Wiping out the Thuggee was hard enough the first time I'd rather it didn’t have to be done again...

What about all the other cultures and people that the British destroyed, no sympathy for them?

English has never had any problem taking words from dead languages.

True, but not relevant to this discussion.

 

[geni]

You are being pedantic about the word 'your'. It was clear what I meant.

Not really. Englished ceased to be the langauge of any one culture quite a while ago. It is important to recognise this.

What about all the other cultures and people that the British destroyed, no sympathy for them?

Given that they would have tried to do the same if the situations were reversed no.

 

[SimonD]

Given that they would have tried to do the same if the situations were reversed no.

Since when was the English language and culture threated by the Welsh, the Scottish, the Irish, the American Natives, the Australian Aboriginies, et.al. Britian was the aggressor.

 

[geni]

Since when was the English language and culture threated by the Welsh, the Scottish, the Irish, the American Natives, the Australian Aboriginies, et.al. Britian was the aggressor.

The scots invaded a few times. The Irish have tried to suppress british culture in the Republic of Ireland at various times.

However I said "if the situations were reversed" rather than when they have been.