Vote one, Irish culture

[SimonD]

A chairde (Dear Friends)

I was wondering if anyone would like to sign the the following petition supporting Irish Language Legislation for the North of Ireland. Submissions supporting legislation are closing this week. Please take the time to put your name to the petition to give Gaelic official status in the north of Ireland and help rectify an age old injustice.

Simon Dalton

http://www.petitiononline.com/acht/

 

[Geckko]

As an Aussie married into an Irish family and living in Ireland, I would suggest this is not as simple and black and white as that.

I would question the role of Irish as an "official" language in Ireland, let alone its new status as an "official" language in the EU and potentially an "official" language in NI.

Why?

Making it official means simply that all "official" communications need to be translated into Irish at enormous expense, just on matter of principle, not need. Same goes for translations of precedings (as it happens people who are fluent - in fact have English as first language - like to exercise their right to have official proceeding transalted back and forth like a Monty Pyhton sketch)

Making it official leads to some perverse inequalities - You can not join the police force or become a teacher in Ireland without passing Irish, you can not gain admitance to the majority of universities in Ireland without studying Irish at school (yes, even if you want to study physics).

And the irony is that everyone speaks English (yes, even in "official" Gaeltacht regions)

And proably the largest grey area in this is the role of Irish as one of the symbols used for divisive purposes (yes there are some particularly dark corners of Irish nationalist feelings that don't tend to get seen internationally behind all the leprechauns, Guinness and Blarney).

It is more complicated than "righting the wrongs of 800 years of oppression" which is complete twaddle when confronted with all the realities of the world.

Much better, in my opinion, to assist and nurture the language as part of the cultural heritage. Do things like support arts in Irish, encourage it as an elective language in schools and ensure there are resources avaiable to teach it (i.e. don't make it complusory or make it compulsory for teachers).

 

[malbui]

As someone who spoke Irish as a child and who retains an enormous fondness for the language, I was going to make a lengthy post, but Geckko has got there first and said pretty much all of it for me.

 

[Smidge]

Bravo, Geckko!

I received most of my education through Irish. I too retain a fondness for the language but rarely speak it. The closest I get to enjoying Irish is watching 'Ros Na Run' on TG4, which incidentally is great fun.

Irish has already been recognised as an official language in the EU and it is, according to Bunreacht na hEireann (The Irish Constitution) the first language of this state.

Irish born third level applicants are still required by the National University of Ireland to pass Irish to matriculate. This requirement weighs heavily on many applicants.

As a compulsory school subject that offers with little use or options outside the confines of a classroom the Irish language is poorly regarded and little respected. Few outside of the Gaeltacht areas are expected to use it and there is a bizarre concept of exclusive ownership within the Gaeltacht and Irish speaking communities.

Such things do more to exclude any enthusiasm and interest.

I'm still trying to get my head 'round the fact that Gaeltacht communities can have road and direction signage in Irish only. How about that for exclusion! A great way to feel welcome foreign and native visitors and promote tourism ....

 

[Cuddles]

Before trying to make Irish an official language, look how it works with Welsh. As Geckko and Kitten say, there are huge costs and very little benefit. As an example, my mother works in Welsh screening services and they send invitiations to women to attend breast screening for cancer. Thousands of invitations are sent every month, and every single one has to be in both English and Welsh. Last year there was one reply in Welsh. Since this is in south Wales, that reply was not even from someone who couldn't speak English, it was simply someone who preferred Welsh. Just think of how much money, time and resources are wasted when every single government, business or vaguely official communication has to be translated and sent out twice. I'm all in favour of keeping our cultural heritage, but throwing millions of taxes down the drain every year and filling up landfills with pointless letters is not the way to do it.

 

[fuelair]

Supposedly, George Bernard Shaw was at a meeting he was supposed to address. Prior to his speech, a discussion on the Gaelic became rather heated - and long. Shaw stood it for a while - but finally spoke up saying: "If this doesn't cease I will be giving my talk in Gaelic." According to legend, the audience quickly quieted down.

 

[SimonD]

History is never black or white - it is a distinct color of grey.

My father speaks the language and tried to teach us when we were younger, but growing up in Australia, we (us kids) saw little use of it, and resisted all attempts. More fool us.

I understand that the costs are high, but we are talking about a culture here.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

I understand that the costs are high, but we are talking about a culture here.

Seriously - which culture and then why should that particular culture be if you like "protected and promoted" over other cultures?

 

[SimonD]

Seriously - which culture and then why should that particular culture be if you like "protected and promoted" over other cultures?

Language is a part of culture. Stories of history, people and places are all tied up with it.

One of the elements that has keep the Irish culture alive is the use of it's langauge, dispite the best efforts of an occupying country.

I am not saying we should stop people speaking english, or induging in English culture so that Irish culture will dominate. I am just asking people to consider that protecting a language enriches that culture. Not to mention enriching us all as human beings.

Ask a native American how devastating loosing a language is for that culture.

IMHO I must say that people writing that they think it is a waste of money to try to protect a language a little dishearting.

I wonder what the response would have been if I was to write about a tribe in the Amazon trying to protect it's langauge?

 

[Smidge]

IMHO I must say that people writing that they think it is a waste of money to try to protect a language a little dishearting.

I wonder what the response would have been if I was to write about a tribe in the Amazon trying to protect it's langauge?

No one said it was a waste of money pre se. The opinions expressed above are constructive and realistic. I am Irish, live in Ireland, see Irish everyday around me, received most of my education through Irish and have a degree in the language too. I have seen how the language can be used as a weapon (sot to speak) and to deliberately exclude. And thats' just here in the Republic!

Signing a petition for and/or imposing the use of a language into an area of Ireland where there are more important issues to resolve will not aid the positive promotion of the Irish language.

Any language is integral to its culture but I don't think the issue you are raised here is useful to the promotion of the language.

I have no idea what the response would have been about a tribe in the Amazon and their language. You can only speculate on that.

However, the issue is about establishing Irish as an official language in Northern Ireland (where little of the Irish language spoken) and less to do with protecting a culture than imposing something that has the potential to divide people further.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Language is a part of culture. Stories of history, people and places are all tied up with it.

One of the elements that has keep the Irish culture alive is the use of it's langauge, dispite the best efforts of an occupying country.

I am not saying we should stop people speaking english, or induging in English culture so that Irish culture will dominate. I am just asking people to consider that protecting a language enriches that culture. Not to mention enriching us all as human beings.

Ask a native American how devastating loosing a language is for that culture.

IMHO I must say that people writing that they think it is a waste of money to try to protect a language a little dishearting.

I wonder what the response would have been if I was to write about a tribe in the Amazon trying to protect it's langauge?

Have you started/signed a similar petition in Australia to have Aboriginal languages made official and used for all official communications?

I think that much more would be achieved by using the money spent on producing every government document in multiple languages to actually directly promote its use. I seriously doubt that requiring letters informing people that their bin collection day has changed in Gaelic is going to do anything to protect the language, but it will waste a lot of money.

And references to righting an "age old injustice" suggest this is more politically motivated point scoring then genuine concern for preservation of a language.

 

[malbui]

One of the elements that has keep the Irish culture alive is the use of it's langauge, dispite the best efforts of an occupying country.

I know that it's wrong of me but whenever I see the phrase "occupying country" come into use in a discussion of Ireland my eyes automatically roll.

As I've said above and in other threads, I'm an Irish citizen and a halfway-decent Irish speaker and I enjoy using the language, so I'm certainly not hostile to it. But we have to face reality. Language cannot be imposed on people by legislation, there has to be a real desire to use it. And the history of the southern part of Ireland, after the creation of the Free State after WW1 and the creation of the fully independent Republic after WW2, is that although many of the leaders had a vision of an agrarian, traditional, Gaelic-speaking state, this was absolutely not shared by the mass of the population. For the majority of people in the Republic, Irish is an irrelevance and an inconvenience - I know people whose careers stumbled because they couldn't get a decent passing grade in a language that they were never going to use after they'd left school and which was utterly irrelevant to working in science or engineering.

There is also the political aspect which is absolutely indivisible from the language. My grandparents were native speakers and happy to speak the language outside the country, but were always reluctant to speak it in Ireland because of the political and social connotations - they were proudly Irish but not remotely anti-British, and also viewed the whole cult of Irishry (savagely satirised in An Béal Bocht) with something between suspicion and contempt.

So, to drag this back to the point of this thread, what is the benefit of pushing through legislation about the status of the Irish language in Northern Ireland, apart from making a minority group of activists feel good about themselves? Practically very little will change for those who speak the language (look at how little Irish is practically spoken outside the Gaeltacht even though in theory you can use it in any official setting anywhere in the country), while those who don't speak the language will feel excluded and hostile.

 

[Garrette]

I have Irish ancestry, have been fortunate enough to vacation in Ireland, know a bit of its history, love listening to Gaelic speakers though I do not understand them, love lots of Irish music, and identify strongly with the country, but I do not speak Gaelic myself in the slightest.

That said, I am with kittenindublin and malbui on this.

What is the imperative for forcing a culture to be saved? If those most closely associated with it do not wish to save it themselves or cannot manage to convince others to voluntarily adopt aspects of it in order to save it, then why must it be saved?

In the United States I vociferously and actively oppose all attempts to make English the official language either at state or federal level. Likewise, I would oppose making Spanish the official language. I do not speak Spanish myself, but I recognize my children will be well served to learn it themselves. If my great grandchildren become adults in a society which predominantly speaks Spanish, I hope they resist attempts to make it the official language simply because they feel threatened by the new wave of Hindu-speaking immigrants.

 

[SimonD]

No one said it was a waste of money pre se. The opinions expressed above are constructive and realistic. I am Irish, live in Ireland, see Irish everyday around me, received most of my education through Irish and have a degree in the language too. I have seen how the language can be used as a weapon (sot to speak) and to deliberately exclude. And thats' just here in the Republic!

I have lived in Ireland myself. I do have some understand of the situation. I accept that the points raised are valid and constructive.

Signing a petition for and/or imposing the use of a language into an area of Ireland where there are more important issues to resolve will not aid the positive promotion of the Irish language.

.

Perhaps not, but I can see no harm in trying to keep alive a language

Any language is integral to its culture but I don't think the issue you are raised here is useful to the promotion of the language..

I disagree

Are we not discussing the Irish langauge and it's place in the world? Does this not help promote understanding of the language? Even if I am wrong, someone will have learnt something somewhere.

I have no idea what the response would have been about a tribe in the Amazon and their language. You can only speculate on that.

However, the issue is about establishing Irish as an official language in Northern Ireland (where little of the Irish language spoken) and less to do with protecting a culture than imposing something that has the potential to divide people further.

I doubt that bringing Irish back to the North will cause the 'war' to erupt again. It may only be a token gesture, but I believe, one which should be made. That is just my opinion.

I know that it's wrong of me but whenever I see the phrase "occupying country" come into use in a discussion of Ireland my eyes automatically roll..

I know what you mean. I typed English, then British, the whole time thinking, sombody will say it wasn't really the English, but the Normans as well and then another person will say....How do you try to fit 800 years of history into one word or a concept. Even when I pressed the 'post' button I still wasn't comfortable with the term.

As I've said above and in other threads, I'm an Irish citizen and a halfway-decent Irish speaker and I enjoy using the language, so I'm certainly not hostile to it. But we have to face reality. Language cannot be imposed on people by legislation, there has to be a real desire to use it. And the history of the southern part of Ireland, after the creation of the Free State after WW1 and the creation of the fully independent Republic after WW2, is that although many of the leaders had a vision of an agrarian, traditional, Gaelic-speaking state, this was absolutely not shared by the mass of the population. For the majority of people in the Republic, Irish is an irrelevance and an inconvenience - I know people whose careers stumbled because they couldn't get a decent passing grade in a language that they were never going to use after they'd left school and which was utterly irrelevant to working in science or engineering.

There is also the political aspect which is absolutely indivisible from the language. My grandparents were native speakers and happy to speak the language outside the country, but were always reluctant to speak it in Ireland because of the political and social connotations - they were proudly Irish but not remotely anti-British, and also viewed the whole cult of Irishry (savagely satirised in An Béal Bocht) with something between suspicion and contempt.

So, to drag this back to the point of this thread, what is the benefit of pushing through legislation about the status of the Irish language in Northern Ireland, apart from making a minority group of activists feel good about themselves? Practically very little will change for those who speak the language (look at how little Irish is practically spoken outside the Gaeltacht even though in theory you can use it in any official setting anywhere in the country), while those who don't speak the language will feel excluded and hostile.

All good points. I am just sadded to see the passing of any language. I got an e-mail from a friend who put me onto the site. I just thought it was a good idea.

Have you started/signed a similar petition in Australia to have Aboriginal languages made official and used for all official communications?.

I have worked in the NT supporting Aboriginal communities.

I think that much more would be achieved by using the money spent on producing every government document in multiple languages to actually directly promote its use. I seriously doubt that requiring letters informing people that their bin collection day has changed in Gaelic is going to do anything to protect the language, but it will waste a lot of money..

Err, first you are asking me if I have done something for the aborigines, implying it is worthy and then you say what a complete waste of time, money and effort to do it if it was for the Irish.

And references to righting an "age old injustice" suggest this is more politically motivated point scoring then genuine concern for preservation of a language.

I agree. I could have chosen my words better.

E.T.A Sorry Garrette, missed you doing these other posts.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I Err, first you are asking me if I have done something for the aborigines, implying it is worthy and then you say what a complete waste of time, money and effort to do it if it was for the Irish.

Sorry. Didn't express myself clearly, I was not trying to imply that you should have done something to support aboriginal languages, just trying to give a, hopefully relevant, example of why I thought it was a bad idea to do so for either the Aborigines or the Irish.

When you were working to support those communities, did you ever think "You know the problem here is that someone in a suburb in Sydney can only get information from her local council in English?" or did you have a thousand and one better things that funding could have been usefully spent on had it been available?

 

[Garrette]

E.T.A Sorry Garrette, missed you doing these other posts.

No problem. My points were raised by others and you addressed those.

 

[irishman]

Firstly you seem to think that not doing this will somehow result in the "passing of a language".

Irish is alive and well and very active here and introducing it forcibly into NI won't help its cause.

I, for one, would be reluctant to sign your petition.

 

[SimonD]

Sorry. Didn't express myself clearly, I was not trying to imply that you should have done something to support aboriginal languages, just trying to give a, hopefully relevant, example of why I thought it was a bad idea to do so for either the Aborigines or the Irish.

When you were working to support those communities, did you ever think "You know the problem here is that someone in a suburb in Sydney can only get information from her local council in English?" or did you have a thousand and one better things that funding could have been usefully spent on had it been available?

Where I worked, English was a second language, so the inverse may be true.

I could write an entire book on what I thought the government and the Aborigines should have spent their money on.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Where I worked, English was a second language, so the inverse may be true.

Maybe, but the point is that once it gains "official" status, it has to be used for all official publications. So instead of concentrating the money where it is useful, like in that community, the money is spread across all areas, including the Sydney suburb.

 

[SimonD]

Firstly you seem to think that not doing this will somehow result in the "passing of a language".

I am not that naive.

Irish is alive and well and very active here and introducing it forcibly into NI won't help its cause..

Considering the opposition that has been expressed here, I doubt it will have any impact at all (the petiton that is)

I, for one, would be reluctant to sign your petition.

It isn't my petition.