David Hicks The farce of Gitmo continues.

[Zep]

No, I do not agree.

Legitimate war has always been reserved for combat between nations. Al Qaeda is more like the Mafia.
Since about 12 Sept 2001, I have been of the opinion that a large-scale police action would have been the appropriate response to Al Qaeda, not some trumped up rhetorical use of the word 'war'. These are not enemy soldiers. These are criminals.

But a "police action" would mean having to get police involved, and in this case, an "international" police force...

Here's a hint: Korea, 1950-1953, was actually a police action sanctioned and particpated by...?? Anyone?

 

[Schneibster]

The U.N. supported the ROK; China and the Soviet Union supported the DPRK.

 

[Zep]

The point is and always been the question of exactly what he is. An enemy combatant? A criminal? Something else?

The truth is the international terrorist has elements of both. He is a relatively new animal that doesn't easily lend itself to military or civil definitions. It is appropriate, in my opinion, that we recognize this and work out new rules for dealing with new situations.

Wouldn't that have been a really good thing to have sorted out BEFORE you put people in jail for years at a time, use solitary confinement for years, deny them trial and justice, and torture them?

I'll second the calls here, and it has been repeated a number of times over the last few years too: If there is sufficient evidence that David Hicks is a convictable terrorist, killer, consorter with heathens, whatever that he did before he was captured that is considered illegal and has landed him in captivity, get him on trial without delay, produce the evidence in public, convict him, and sentence him appropriately.

It's taken five years, FIVE YEARS!*, just to charge him! And that's with some trumped up offence that, until only a few months ago, didn't even exist! After dropping every single serious charge but this!

Seriously, Mycroft: Who is writing the laws in the USA regarding Guantanamo Bay prisoners? Judge Roy Bean? Fifty Cent? Mel Brooks??




* That's 60 months and still counting. Here's a comparison: From Pearl Harbour to Hiroshima was less than 50 months. From VE day to Nuremberg finishing up was less that 30 months. Desert Storm, 7 months...

 

[Zep]

The U.N. supported the ROK; China and the Soviet Union supported the DPRK.

Thank you.

Y'know, I could have put the Google link to Wikipedia, but I had hopes of there being some research and realisation in some quarters...

 

[Schneibster]

Seriously, Mycroft: Who is writing the laws in the USA regarding Guantanamo Bay prisoners? Judge Roy Bean? Fifty Cent? Mel Brooks??

Would you believe... George Walker Bush?

Badum-bum.

Actually, that's a canard. Truth be told, it's more likely Darth Cheney or Gonzo.

Note that charging someone with a crime they committed when the alleged act was not illegal is called an ex post facto law, and is illegal under our Constitution.

You'll have to handle Mycroft; not that you're likely to find it any great strain, let's just say he's not exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier. I personally can't stand to read what he spews, and commend you on your strong stomach.

 

[Schneibster]

Thank you.

Y'know, I could have put the Google link to Wikipedia, but I had hopes of there being some research and realisation in some quarters...

I repeat one of the most well-known misquotes of Santayana: those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

The whippings will continue until morale improves.

 

[Zep]

Would you believe... George Walker Bush?

Badum-bum.

I can appreciate the irony. But I can only wonder what the response would be if it were a US citizen who was captured in Pakistan, mysteriously shipped to Egypt and handed over to a foreign power, who entombed him in some awful place without trial. I suspect a full battle fleet would have been despatched long ago...

Actually, that's a canard. Truth be told, it's more likely Darth Cheney or Gonzo.

I sincerely doubt it is the ex-Yale cheerleader or any of his Evul Crue doing the drafting. They just drop hints and suggestions...

Note that charging someone with a crime they committed when the alleged act was not illegal is called an ex post facto law, and is illegal under our Constitution.

Understood. But that seems to not be a problem for the current administration. My list of legal draughtsmen was carefully chosen, not just for irony value.

You'll have to handle Mycroft; not that you're likely to find it any great strain, let's just say he's not exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier. I personally can't stand to read what he spews, and commend you on your strong stomach.

He's OK. Patriotism is fine and commendable. It's when it becomes jingoism that it grates.

 

[Schneibster]

I can appreciate the irony. But I can only wonder what the response would be if it were a US citizen who was captured in Pakistan, mysteriously shipped to Egypt and handed over to a foreign power, who entombed him in some awful place without trial. I suspect a full battle fleet would have been despatched long ago...

Depends on whether he's got a rich mommy and daddy who don't contribute to teh evul Demorat Party. Yep, nothing like a nice free market in justice.

I sincerely doubt it is the ex-Yale cheerleader or any of his Evul Crue doing the drafting. They just drop hints and suggestions...

Actually, despite looking like a complete idiot, the man is relatively smart. And Gonzo is, of course, the head lawyer. Which may or may not be a recommendation.

Understood. But that seems to not be a problem for the current administration. My list of legal draughtsmen was carefully chosen, not just for irony value.

I'm watching this unfold and wondering how long it's going to take to undo the damage these people are doing. But if you get right down to it, it's a matter of what Ben said, and I'll warn you I'm going to misquote it: those who would surrender essential freedom to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither. The patriots are all over spilling their blood in Iraq, and the tyrants don't seem to be doing any dying over here. The tree of liberty is, in consequence, apparently withering. I hope some people around here grow some cojones some time soon.

He's OK. Patriotism is fine and commendable. It's when it becomes jingoism that it grates.

Yep. You hit that one out of the park.

 

[Mycroft]

You are the one holding him....how long do you want to take to make up your mind?

Five years....you are still trying to figure out what you have in this prison?

IIRC, they did that from the beginning. Remember? They made up their minds that he was an "enemy combatant."

I think your administration has already tried some new rules and some of these have been thrown out because they are not compatable with the old rules. That you can be charged with breaking a law prior to the law existing is one of the new rules....not I good new rule in my opinion but it appears to be all thats left standing in the case of David Hicks.

I think ultimately it's going to be up to your country to put him on trial, isn't it? That is if he's ever released from his "enemy combatant" status.

Any thoughts yet on the open question? Why hold them in cuba? what is the point of that?

I tend to agree with your assessment. The difference is our respective opinions on how things should be.

 

[Mycroft]

Wouldn't that have been a really good thing to have sorted out BEFORE you put people in jail for years at a time, use solitary confinement for years, deny them trial and justice, and torture them?

Is GITMO jail? I thought it was a military prison. You know, for enemy combatants.

I personally would like to see other evidence that he was tortuerd other than his own word.

I'll second the calls here, and it has been repeated a number of times over the last few years too: If there is sufficient evidence that David Hicks is a convictable terrorist, killer, consorter with heathens, whatever that he did before he was captured that is considered illegal and has landed him in captivity...

There it is again, the insistance that he be treated as a common criminal, with all the legal protections a criminal gets. That's what the dispute is about, remember?

 

[rikzilla]

Obtained under torture? He has already said it got to the point he would say anything just to make them stop.

Obtained under what torture? Is there any evidence of torture besides the hearsay of terrorists or friends and family of terrorists?

The testimony given by Hicks's fellow terrorist is filled with detail, if the guy is making all this up about him then he should be writing screenplays for "24".

Hicks is AQ. That's enough to put him up against a wall as far as I'm concerned. If he was just some bloke playing at being Taliban then maybe he could be cut some slack. Hicks was OBL's wet dream, a nice white Aussie citizen that could travel freely in the west without raising an eyebrow. Just what do you think he was being groomed for anyway? Peace ambassador?

-z

 

[The Fool]

Obtained under what torture? Is there any evidence of torture besides the hearsay of terrorists or friends and family of terrorists?

No...just like there is not any evidence besides hearsay of terrorists or friends and family of terrorists for the things you gladly accept as true...

The testimony given by Hicks's fellow terrorist is filled with detail, if the guy is making all this up about him then he should be writing screenplays for "24".

Hicks is AQ. That's enough to put him up against a wall as far as I'm concerned.

Hmmm...all AQ? The cleaning ladies too?


There is enough "hearsay of terrorists or friends and family of terrorists" for you to execute this guy. You find the statements of fellow prisoners delightfully convincing when they are what you want to hear....but not if they speak of torture.

If he was just some bloke playing at being Taliban then maybe he could be cut some slack. Hicks was OBL's wet dream, a nice white Aussie citizen that could travel freely in the west without raising an eyebrow. Just what do you think he was being groomed for anyway? Peace ambassador?

-z

Thats why he was captured doing the key task of guarding a tank....yep, OBL's blue eyed boy, a key figure in AQ. Guarding a clapped out tank in the middle of nowhere....how will AQ survive without him?

Funny you mention the nice white Aussie bit.....I think that gets to the core of why he is where he is. If he was Just another Afghan he would not be in gitmo.....but he was worth a deal of money to the northern alliance who were payed a bounty for handing him over. I wonder if they talked him up for the reward money? I doubt it....I think they probably had too much honesty and integrity to want to squeeze a few more dollars out of the US taxpayer. I wonder if The US payed a premium for a westerner?


Anyway...its nice to see we have contributers here who are even more extremist that George bush. Georgie just wants to avoid having to give this
guy US justice....Rick wants to put a bullet in him. Luckily, people with less violent viewpoints are not going to let you put a bullet in him.

 

[The Fool]

IIRC, they did that from the beginning. Remember? They made up their minds that he was an "enemy combatant."

No....this whole farce was set up specifically to avoid having to treat these people as "enemy combatants"....

I think ultimately it's going to be up to your country to put him on trial, isn't it? That is if he's ever released from his "enemy combatant" status.

He can't be put on trial here because he has not broken any Australian laws...and we have not passed any retrospective laws to cover things he did in the past. Thats the problem.....you can't give him to us because our Justice system would not allow what you are doing. And he is not an "enemy combatant" so he can't be released from that.


ETA: Mycrfoft...on re-reading this post I think you may have just mistyped? Did you mean "illegal" combatant rather than "enemy"?

 

[fishbob]

For years I’ve been saying that an international terrorist is not the same as a common criminal and doesn’t deserve to be treated as one. QUOTE]

Why? Because they are scarier?
Kind of like the 'assault weapons' of the criminal world?

 

[athon]

It goes on. What a piece of human garbage.

I'm not going to say much here, because politics is often a place where people speak with emotion rather than reason, and reasonable argument goes out of the window. But, for some reason I feel obliged to post.

When I was 13, a close friend of mine was raped and beaten to death with a hammer and her body was left on a dirt track a few kilometres from my house. They found the guy and sentenced him to life, which was 25 years. He'll be out in about a decade.

That was human garbage. People decided once that the sort of things he did were unacceptable, evidence for his actions were presented and the claim that he was responsible was upheld in a court of law.

In my home city in Queensland, was a case of an 18 month old baby stolen from its crib, sexually assaulted, murdered, and its body was flung onto the roof of a toilet block. It's killer was matched from teeth marks on the child's leg, demonstrated in a rational process in a court of law according to laws previously written to say that such a thing is not acceptable.

That was human garbage.

Is David Hicks human garbage? He wished for Muslim law to be upheld across all nations, and that for this to happen, Americans should die. Murder was justified in his mind in order for this to happen. Yes, he is garbage, just as anybody who believes torture and death are par for course in any universal implementation of values they beleive in; democracy, freedom...any value.

Garbage or not, even those baby killers and rapists were trialled. Not for respect of them or their actions, but for respect of the process we have which says there is a due process every person deserves to demonstrate they have done wrong, and that we will endeavour to stop that from happening again.

Think with rage if you wish. I'll continue to campaign that we use reason and rational process to address issues such as these.

Athon

 

[The Fool]

If you want an interesting listen...Here is a presentation By David Hicks' US appointed Lawyer. Maj Michael Dante "Dan" Mori USMC.

When I have, at times, reached the point of despair With the US on this issue it is Maj Dan Mori that has refreshed my spirit and faith in US Justice. If you are american you should take pride in the fact that this man can do what he is doing. Of course....he has just been threatened with being charged for what he has said here....that is something you may want to consider not being so proud of.

go here and click on the link to the lecture..

http://info.anu.edu.au/Discover_ANU/News_and_Events/Public_Lectures/_Major_Mori.asp

 

[Zep]

Well said, Athon.

 

[Cleon]

I'm not going to say much here, because politics is often a place where people speak with emotion rather than reason, and reasonable argument goes out of the window. But, for some reason I feel obliged to post.

When I was 13, a close friend of mine was raped and beaten to death with a hammer and her body was left on a dirt track a few kilometres from my house. They found the guy and sentenced him to life, which was 25 years. He'll be out in about a decade.

That was human garbage. People decided once that the sort of things he did were unacceptable, evidence for his actions were presented and the claim that he was responsible was upheld in a court of law.

In my home city in Queensland, was a case of an 18 month old baby stolen from its crib, sexually assaulted, murdered, and its body was flung onto the roof of a toilet block. It's killer was matched from teeth marks on the child's leg, demonstrated in a rational process in a court of law according to laws previously written to say that such a thing is not acceptable.

That was human garbage.

Is David Hicks human garbage? He wished for Muslim law to be upheld across all nations, and that for this to happen, Americans should die. Murder was justified in his mind in order for this to happen. Yes, he is garbage, just as anybody who believes torture and death are par for course in any universal implementation of values they beleive in; democracy, freedom...any value.

Garbage or not, even those baby killers and rapists were trialled. Not for respect of them or their actions, but for respect of the process we have which says there is a due process every person deserves to demonstrate they have done wrong, and that we will endeavour to stop that from happening again.

Think with rage if you wish. I'll continue to campaign that we use reason and rational process to address issues such as these.

Athon

Nominated.

 

[Mycroft]

Funny you mention the nice white Aussie bit.....I think that gets to the core of why he is where he is. If he was Just another Afghan he would not be in gitmo.....but he was worth a deal of money to the northern alliance who were payed a bounty for handing him over. I wonder if they talked him up for the reward money? I doubt it....I think they probably had too much honesty and integrity to want to squeeze a few more dollars out of the US taxpayer. I wonder if The US payed a premium for a westerner?

That's an amazing theory.

Any evidence?

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not going to say much here, because politics is often a place where people speak with emotion rather than reason, and reasonable argument goes out of the window. But, for some reason I feel obliged to post.

When I was 13, a close friend of mine was raped and beaten to death with a hammer and her body was left on a dirt track a few kilometres from my house. They found the guy and sentenced him to life, which was 25 years. He'll be out in about a decade.

That was human garbage. People decided once that the sort of things he did were unacceptable, evidence for his actions were presented and the claim that he was responsible was upheld in a court of law.

In my home city in Queensland, was a case of an 18 month old baby stolen from its crib, sexually assaulted, murdered, and its body was flung onto the roof of a toilet block. It's killer was matched from teeth marks on the child's leg, demonstrated in a rational process in a court of law according to laws previously written to say that such a thing is not acceptable.

That was human garbage.

Is David Hicks human garbage? He wished for Muslim law to be upheld across all nations, and that for this to happen, Americans should die. Murder was justified in his mind in order for this to happen. Yes, he is garbage, just as anybody who believes torture and death are par for course in any universal implementation of values they beleive in; democracy, freedom...any value.

Garbage or not, even those baby killers and rapists were trialled. Not for respect of them or their actions, but for respect of the process we have which says there is a due process every person deserves to demonstrate they have done wrong, and that we will endeavour to stop that from happening again.

Think with rage if you wish. I'll continue to campaign that we use reason and rational process to address issues such as these.

Athon

Very well said.

But imagine for a moment that these baby-killers and rapists were religiously motivated by a perverted version of one of the worlds great religions, politically active in that they wanted their practices to be protected by law, even had success in making this happen in many countries around the world, and were funded in secret by people willing to put forth millions to advance their cause?

I don't advocate treating them different from common criminals because their crimes are any worse or because they're scarier. I say they're different because they see themselves differently. They see themselves as an army fighting a holy war, an army that draws strength from breaking the rules of civilized behavior.

They are, by their own definitions, holy warriors that don't recognize the GCs, and that's how they should be treated.