10 story hole in WTC 7

[Christopher7]

Okay, then you answer post 1090.

Be specific

Post #1090 is a typical deniers attempt to ignore the facts and change the subject by asking a lot of rhetorical questions.

OT'ers will not directly address facts that they cannot deny.

You can run but you cannot hide from the facts.
[basic data that will not change in the 'final' report]

 

[Christopher7]

I have made a few corrections and additions to this summary.
No one has directly challenged any of the facts [with references] in this summary.
jaydeehess disputes the path that debris would have to take to reach the fuel pipe, 90' inside the building. Fair enough.
The point of that paragraph is:
Falling debris would have to break thru perimeter columns, several steel and concrete floors, a core column, eject 2 elevators, and still have enough horizontal force to break thru a concrete masonry wall and another 6 inch steel and concrete floor to damage the diesel fuel supply pipe, 90 feet inside the building.
Falling debris could not penetrate 90' into WTC 7. IMHO



There was no debris damage or diesel fuel fires in the area of the initiating event that led to the global collapse of WTC 7.

References:

NIST Appendix L
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf
[note: pg 18 is pg 22 on the page counter]

NIST Final 4-5-05
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC Part IIC - WTC 7 Collapse Final.pdf

FEMA Chapter 5
http:/www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf
[copy and paste in URL bar]


Debris damage:

- Southwest corner damage extended over floors 8 to 18 [NIST Apx. L pg 18]

- Damage starting at roof level....5 to 10 floors....near south west corner [NIST Apx. L pg 18]

- Large debris hole near center of south face around floor 14 [NIST Apx. L pg 18]
[just west of center*]

- South face damage, middle 1/4 - 1/3 width south face, floor 10 to ground [NIST Final 4-5-05 pg 15]

- Only damage to south wall on 9th floor at SW corner [FEMA Ch. 5 pg 20]

- 8th or 9th floor....2 elevator cars ejected into hallway north of elevator shaft, visible portion of south wall was gone....possible damage extended to the west [NIST Apx. L pg 18]


Explosion heard on floor 8
[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6475257160515133665&q=wtc7+new+footage
Start at 6:20 min.
[Warning: audio very loud and distorted, turn down volume before viewing]

* Steve Spak photograph with location of perimeter columns added graphically.
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9000/copyofwtc7holeanalysiscyk0.jpg


No debris damage to east 1/3 of south face was reported

********************************************************

In order for debris to get to the fuel supply
pipe (located 90' inside the building), it would have to
take out 3 perimeter columns,
bust thru 5 - 5 1/2" steel and concrete floors,
including at least 1 floor support beam per floor,
knock 2 elevators out of their shafts,
thru a wall and into the hallway,
take out a core column,
break thru a concrete masonry wall
and a 6" steel and concrete floor.
[NIST Apx. L pg 3 - 6]

There is NO evidence that this happened.

Smoke from a fuel oil fed fire would be pouring out the hole made by the elevators.


12:10 to 12:15 p.m.
- No fires, heavy dust or smoke were reported as they left floor 8
[NIST Apx. L pg 18]

********************************************************

Fires:

There was no diesel fuel fed fires in the east part of WTC 7 where the initial event, that led to the collapse, occurred.


The east generator room was in the north east corner of WTC 7 on the 5th floor.
The supply pipe for the east generator room was north of the wall that is on the north side of the mechanical room, 90' from the south side of the building. [FEMA pg 14 - 15]

If the generators [and the pump feeding fuel oil to them] were running, the louver vents would be open. [FEMA pg 29]

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/937/e5pt8.jpg

If there was a fire in this room, smoke would be pouring out thru the vents.

********************************************************

Fire on floor 12

Form 11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. it burned west to east across the south side

From 2:00 to 3:00 p.m., the fire progresses north along east side
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7555/e40rv.jpg

About 3:00 p.m., it reached the north side, east of center, and spread in both directions
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6500/n5pq6.jpg
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5236/n6oj1.jpg

By 4:45 the fire on floor 12 had burned out
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2337/copyofwtc716474jw7rf2.jpg
Video of north side after fires on floors 7, 12 and 13 had burned out
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1548030539


Other fires:

11:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m.: fire on floor 22 on south side
About 12:15 p.m.: Fire on floor 7 at west wall, toward the south side
2:00 to 2:20 p.m.: fire on floor 11 at SE corner, progressing north
Around 3:00 p.m.: fire on floor 7 near middle of north side
Sometime later, fire on floors 8 and 13
Fire on floor 8 eventually burned to NE corner and moved to east face

[NIST Apx. L pg 22 - 26]

********************************************************

The reports of fire to the east part of WTC 7 are not going to change in the final report.
The reports given are clear, the times are accurate enough to track the progression of the fires.

 

[Myriad]

The point of that paragraph is:
Falling debris would have to break thru perimeter columns, several steel and concrete floors, a core column, eject 2 elevators, and still have enough horizontal force to break thru a concrete masonry wall and another 6 inch steel and concrete floor to damage the diesel fuel supply pipe, 90 feet inside the building.
Falling debris could not penetrate 90' into WTC 7.

You didn't respond to what I said before about this, so let me try again.

If a piece of falling debris were to hit you, would it have to make a hole through your skin and muscles in order to break your leg?

Also, what do you think a list of all the locations in the building that were not on fire would look like? Are you assuming that there was no fire anywhere except where it was specifically reported?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[JimBenArm]

Obviously, you have not read post #1082 or you would know that i wrote it.

Please take the time to read it.

I read it. I know you wrote it. My comment still stands as valid.
Deal with it.

 

[Miragememories]

You didn't respond to what I said before about this, so let me try again.

If a piece of falling debris were to hit you, would it have to make a hole through your skin and muscles in order to break your leg?

Also, what do you think a list of all the locations in the building that were not on fire would look like? Are you assuming that there was no fire anywhere except where it was specifically reported?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Address the subject Myriad.

Your analogy makes zero connections with the subject at hand.

MM

 

[mortimer]

There was no debris damage or diesel fuel fires in the area of the initiating event that led to the global collapse of WTC 7.

Using your (obviously) strong knowledge of structural engineering, kindly explain why there would necessarily have to be diesel fuel fires and/or debris damage in the area of the initiating event that led to global collapse for such fires or damage to be the cause of the initiating event.

 

[Myriad]

Address the subject Myriad.

Gladly.

A strong blow from a fist can rupture a man's spleen. It is not necessary for the fist to touch the spleen for this to happen.

Debris striking WTC7 ejected cars from elevator shafts, even though it's likely that debris did not strike the elevator cars.

It's called internal damage. (Internal injury, when it happens to a person.)

You don't need to make holes in something in order to damage it internally.

Also, if you do make a hole when damaging something internally, the size of the hole is not necessarily indicative of the amount of damage, and the location of the hole is not always indicative of the location of the internal damage.

When the force of a blow is what causes the damage, that force can be transmitted as a shock wave through structural members until an internal weak spot gives way.

Which means, unless you did a complete floor-by-floor walk-through inspection of WTC7 after the tower collapses, or you have the testimony of others who did a complete floor-by-floor walk-through inspection, you have no idea where in the building structural damage might have existed.

Therefore you have no basis to say whether the building should or should not have collapsed the way it did, based on incomplete information that's mostly about the condition of the building's exterior.

You're guessing.

There's nothing wrong with guessing, I suppose. But why should your guesses be of any interest to anyone else?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[MaGZ]

That hole did not exist.

See post #94

I read post 94. So there is some disagreement if a massive hole ever existed. One possible solution to this question is to present photos of the lower southern face of WTC7.

The problem is...no one can seem to find any.

I wonder why?

 

[mortimer]

I read post 94. So there is some disagreement if a massive hole ever existed. One possible solution to this question is to present photos of the lower southern face of WTC7.

The problem is...no one can seem to find any.

I wonder why?

Let me guess. Because the jooooooos control the media?

 

[Coritani]

Let me guess. Because the jooooooos control the media?

Wrong.

The missile destroyed all the cameras at the scene.

 

[twinstead]

Wait a minute. I thought, according to Chris, only WE are guessing.

Don't tell me that Chris also is guessing. Shucks. And I was so rooting for him. Damn.

I defer to the experts on the ground, at the site, there during the event before I would even begin to entertain a member of the YouTube generation.

Chris, you can spin this all you want, but there were people there, and by there I mean physically there not viewing the event through YouTube goggles, who were and are qualified to judge whether a building is in imminent danger of catastrophic failure.

In fact, the vast majority of people on the ground on 911 observing WTC7, and these were not average Joes but for the most part members of FDNY, some of the best in the world at fighting multi-story fires, report a building heavily damaged, on fire, and in danger of imminent collapse.

These people's reports were listened to closely and prompted a full pull out of all fire personnel and a perimeter being set up around the building to prevent any further loss of life.

In your universe, they are either lying or incompetent. In my universe, YOU are either lying or incompetent.

 

[MaGZ]

Let me guess. Because the jooooooos control the media?

On the evening of 9/11 the FBI likely paid a visit to all television stations that had footage of the missile strike on WTC 7 and collected the station's film or gave instructions which portions of the film could be broadcasted.

The Naudet bothers had a FBI visit that evening.

The Missiles at Ground Zero
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/printer.php?id=10058

 

[Coritani]

On the evening of 9/11 the FBI likely paid a visit to all television stations that had footage of the missile strike on WTC 7 and collected the station's film or gave instructions which portions of the film could be broadcasted.

Prove it.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I read post 94. So there is some disagreement if a massive hole ever existed. One possible solution to this question is to present photos of the lower southern face of WTC7.

The problem is...no one can seem to find any.

I wonder why?

Holy mother of God...

Do you wash your brain every morning, or something? There have been two threads of yours in which pictures of the south face of WTC7 have been posted.

MaGZ is a being of pure stupidity. I swear...

 

[twinstead]

The Naudet bothers had a FBI visit that evening.

Dude. You are polluting this forum with your blind ideology. Seriously, I normally will never say that because I believe that everybody has a right to voice their opinions and be respected for being true to themselves IF indeed they are.

Your ideology, your world view, is TOXIC. Everything it touches is tainted.

Everybody who reads your posts, participant or lurker, knows this.

Good luck with that.

 

[MaGZ]

Holy mother of God...

Do you wash your brain every morning, or something? There have been two threads of yours in which pictures of the south face of WTC7 have been posted.

MaGZ is a being of pure stupidity. I swear...

You must be referring to these two pictures which show WTC 7 on fire as a result of the missile strike. Look for the burning rooms on the lower floors of 11 and 12. Please note the fires were not started by the collapse of the Twin Towers.

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc23.JPG

http://www.amanzafar.com/WTC/wtc38.JPG

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

[ I'm having an entirely different discussion. This was irrelevent. Apologies. ]

 

[SirPhilip]

Not sure if anyone's posted this yet, but an example of extraordinary evidence either way:

 

[MaGZ]

Better link of Ground Zero is the 258k photo. Zoom in on the open parking area northwest of the WTC. Look for the black missile crater.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s798b.htm

 

[Kent1]

Thanx for the URL

You 'covered' the smoke ?

There was NO smoke coming out of the exhaust vents.
Therefore there was NO fire in the north east generator room.

There was a concrete masonry wall that ran most of the length of floor 5 along the north core column row 58 - 79. [90 feet from the front of WTC 7]
This wall continued to the east end of the building. [FEMA pg 14 - 15]

NIST mentioned the possibility of fire north of this wall, but there is NO evidence that it actually happened.

You have taken the mention of a possibility and claimed it a fact.

I never said smoke was coming out of the vents.
Your next statement is something you can't support.
Nothing left but filler. ie..hypocritical statements nonreplys and handwaving.
I see nothing new has been added to the debate since my post #1120. Only ignored. So I think its over.
As I stated before its like talking to a wall.
I would suggest people simply read my posts and the information I linked to in this thread.
Cheers