Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[VulcanWay]

True, if bigfoot is not a real creature, the legends started with Native Americans originally (or likewise other native cultures in other places).

Though I personally do not believe in the existance of Bigfoot, my summation wasn't meant to slant either toward existance or non-existance of Bigfoot. Merely trying to sum up your beliefs concerning the creature to get a better understanding of where you're coming from and clear up any misconceptions (like Bigfoot being a shapechanger, which you were not clear on at first).

Given that, it is fair to say that if Bigfoot does exist that sightings of it may have inspired legends such as the Kushtaka. (That was the thrust of my last sentence in that post):

Hence the Kushtaka legend and others, which owe their origins to what we call Bigfoot.

 

[Hairy Man]

Though I personally do not believe in the existance of Bigfoot, my summation wasn't meant to slant either toward existance or non-existance of Bigfoot. Merely trying to sum up your beliefs concerning the creature to get a better understanding of where you're coming from and clear up any misconceptions (like Bigfoot being a shapechanger, which you were not clear on at first).

Given that, it is fair to say that if Bigfoot does exist that sightings of it may have inspired legends such as the Kushtaka. (That was the thrust of my last sentence in that post):

Oh, yes...also completely true.

 

[kitakaze]

<que stalker music>

Correa, do you remember that list you posted about woo behaviour including an entry on when confronted by a skeptic's dogged efforts showing the woo's fallacy the woo should call 'stalker'? That would be lovely now given Hairy Man's attempts at self-flattery/deflection.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

..................
Given that, it is fair to say that if Bigfoot does exist that sightings of it may have inspired legends such as the Kushtaka. (That was the thrust of my last sentence in that post):

Oh, yes...also completely true.

But that doesn't jive with the " Otter Man " ( and seemingly the most persistant ) version of Kushtaka ..

You might as well claim that sightings of Bigfoot are the basis of all bipedal boogey man stories ..

 

[kitakaze]

BTW, VulcanWay, at least 41 reports for bigfoot in Wisconsin. I don't know whether to call the Six Million Dollar Man or Laverne and Shirley.

 

[Belz...]

<que [sic] stalker music>

What's this obsession with stalking ? Has he been to your house or something ?

 

[kitakaze]

Naturally, Hairy Man, as one so versed in Native American lore I'm still curious on your thoughts of the statement of them referring for centuries to bigfoot as sasquatch. I wonder what J.W. Burns might have said about that.

 

[VulcanWay]

But that doesn't jive with the " Otter Man " ( and seemingly the most persistant ) version of Kushtaka ..

You might as well claim that sightings of Bigfoot are the basis of all bipedal boogey man stories ..

I see where you're coming from. I suppose what I am positing is that, yes, given that cultures do seem to take things and put their own personal slant on them (making it more "their own" or putting a given creature or place in more in line with their other beliefs, religious and otherwise), I can see where sightings of a "Bigfoot" could spawn legends of bipedal, hairy boogey man stories. Note that I stated that such sightings may have inspired such legends. It's also possible that, even if a Bigfoot does exist, that those legends may have come from elsewhere having nothing to do with a Bigfoot sighting. I'm not wobbling, rather trying to stay open-minded and be my own personal skeptic. Hypothetically, if Bigfoot does exist, is it out of the rational realm for it to have spawned not entirely accurate legends from various cultures?

By way of example:
It is generally believed that what sailors thought in ages past to be a mermaid^WP may very well have been a manatee or dugongs. Sailors, seeing what looks to be perhaps a torso and a lower flipper instead created the legend of a half-woman, half-fish being. Now a manatee looks nothing like such a creature, but an elusive sighting tends to get a culture's juices flowing. And what do sailors (predominantly male) miss in their long months at sea? Women. So their culture made the manatee into a swimming woman. Manatees may also have served as the basis for the siren legends as well. Women on a ship was thought to be bad luck, so is it a stretch to associate something feminine and seen in the sea as a bad omen? And, according to Wiki (for what it's worth) mermaid tales are rather universal, but with their own spin on them which suggests a cultural bias.

Is it possible that the manatee inspired some or many of these legends of half-fish people in the water? I don't think that it is beyond the bounds of reason to say so.

So I am basically playing the Devil's Advocate and saying that if there were Bigfoot running around that it would be equally within the bounds of reason for them to inspire legends in multiple cultures.

 

[Hairy Man]

Yes, Mr. Kitakaze, I saw your comments. No, I didn't write it, a committee did (as well as our bylaws, membership agreements, etc.) but I'm surprised the error wasn't previously caught (except I doubt any one has read it since it was originally passed in 2005).

Although I can post articles to the webpage as an administrator, I can't change a mission statement without the approval of the Board. I already submitted your comments to the Board of Directors for the next meeting at the end of March. The change will appear after that.

 

[William Parcher]

What I'm curious about is if the reporting couple was part of the hoax, or they were just innocently duped by finding fake tracks.

From article: Chuck and Michelle Padigo had been down the logging road lots of times, including just a few days earlier.

Parcher: If a hoaxer knew that people frequent that logging road, then....

I watched the video that accompanies this news story about the couple who found the Bigfoot tracks. The tracks look very fake and the couple waited 4 months to report them. There is an interesting image in that video. It appears to show a photograph of Chuck Padigo kneeling down and pouring plaster into one of the tracks. That struck me as odd behavior for a "random guy+wife" who just happened upon Bigfoot tracks during one of their regular walks. Did Chuck already know how to cast a footprint? Was he already a Bigfooter?

Check out the video, if you haven't seen it already.

 

[VulcanWay]

Now on the other side of the coin, is it possible that a bear or maybe even someone walking around in the skins of an animal to keep warm may have inspired the Kushtaka legend, amongst others? Yes.

I'd have to look it up, but have the Tlingit now or in the past worn animal skins? Seeing that or a bear standing up could very well have inspired Bigfoot-like legends after the culture in question gives it its own cultural twist. What characteristics do the Tlingit attribute to the otter?

So there are both sides of the coin from my point of view.

In viewing the evidence available, though, I do have to go with the non-existance of a Bigfoot and the like, though. That could change should other, better evidence come to light. I am open-minded enough to at least examine it.

 

[kitakaze]

Yes, Mr. Kitakaze, I saw your comments. No, I didn't write it, a committee did (as well as our bylaws, membership agreements, etc.) but I'm surprised the error wasn't previously caught.

Although I can post articles to the webpage as an administrator, I can't change a mission statement without the approval of the Board. I already submitted your comments to the Board of Directors for the next meeting at the end of March. The change will appear after that.

Well then, I'm glad to see my perceived stalking can positively contribute to your organizations strive for legitimacy. Being a legally recognized non-profit organization always helps. Personally, if you'd just admit to what I've shown about the kooshdakhaa matter, I'd love to drop it and get on to far more interesting questions for one who's so deeply involved in the search for bigfoot. That is, if you're still truly interested in a dialogue with informed skeptics of the existence of sasquatches.

 

[William Parcher]

No, I didn't write it, a committee did (as well as our bylaws, membership agreements, etc.) but I'm surprised the error wasn't previously caught (except I doubt any one has read it since it was originally passed in 2005).

What error in your mission statement are we talking about? Is it this?...

...the species of animal known to the Native Americans for centuries as "Sasquatch"...

If so, who would have caught it and why would they think that it was an error?

 

[Correa Neto]

I think the K-word myths (feeling to lazy to cut-and-paste all the spelling variants) stuff has already been cleared... Just as the inheritage issue. Shall we move on?

Fact 1:
"Wildmen" or "hairy men" myths are very widespread and not restricted to North America.

Fact 2:
Myths on shapeshifters, spirits, gods, global floods, etc. are also very widespread and not restricted to North America.

Fact 3:
Shapeshifters are not real, there was no global flood, spirits and gods are not real. OK, some people do not agree with parts of the previous sentece.

Conclusion 1:
"Universal myths" are not exactly the best piece of evidence to back a claim.

Conclusion 2:
Myths on wildmen, hairy or not, gentle or not, big or small are not reliable pro-bigfoot evidence.

Hairy Man, you already stated you do not consider the K-word myth is proof of bigfoot. I, and I think the other bigfoot skeptics, agree with you.
Please note the reasoning above exposed.
My questions are: Do you consider sasquatch myths a reliable pro-bigfoot evidence? Why?

Hairy Man and Desert Yeti, please feel free to move this discussion to another thread if you consider this discussion to be too off-topic.

 

[Hairy Man]

Now on the other side of the coin, is it possible that a bear or maybe even someone walking around in the skins of an animal to keep warm may have inspired the Kushtaka legend, amongst others? Yes.

I'd have to look it up, but have the Tlingit now or in the past worn animal skins? Seeing that or a bear standing up could very well have inspired Bigfoot-like legends after the culture in question gives it its own cultural twist. What characteristics do the Tlingit attribute to the otter?

You might find this interesting (and I apologize for the quality of the photo). It is identified as a dancer at Tlingit Chief Don Assu's potlatch wearing a D'sonoqua mask (Wild Woman of the Woods) and suit. Now, yes, native people in the Tlingit (as well as Kwakiutl, Bella Coola, etc.) wore animal skins for warmth, but these types of costumes would have only been used for ceremonies.

 

[Hairy Man]

What error in your mission statement are we talking about? Is it this?...

If so, who would have caught it and why would they think that it was an error?

Yes, that's the error. NA's haven't used the word "sasquatch" for centuries because it's an Anglized (sp?) spelling of Sesquac (so modern). Who should have caught it, well, I would have hoped anyone reading it...but alas, I think no one has...

 

[kitakaze]

I think the K-word myths (feeling to lazy to cut-and-paste all the spelling variants) stuff has already been cleared...

But Correa, what about Kapre? Oh, I'm just messin'.

 

[Hairy Man]

I think the K-word myths (feeling to lazy to cut-and-paste all the spelling variants) stuff has already been cleared... Just as the inheritage issue. Shall we move on?

Fact 1:
"Wildmen" or "hairy men" myths are very widespread and not restricted to North America.

Fact 2:
Myths on shapeshifters, spirits, gods, global floods, etc. are also very widespread and not restricted to North America.

Fact 3:
Shapeshifters are not real, there was no global flood, spirits and gods are not real. OK, some people do not agree with parts of the previous sentece.

Conclusion 1:
"Universal myths" are not exactly the best piece of evidence to back a claim.

Conclusion 2:
Myths on wildmen, hairy or not, gentle or not, big or small are not reliable pro-bigfoot evidence.

Hairy Man, you already stated you do not consider the K-word myth is proof of bigfoot. I, and I think the other bigfoot skeptics, agree with you.
Please note the reasoning above exposed.

My questions are: Do you consider sasquatch myths a reliable pro-bigfoot evidence? Why?

Hairy Man and Desert Yeti, please feel free to move this discussion to another thread if you consider this discussion to be too off-topic.

Humm....very very good question and difficult at the same time. I would say that I'm torn. My heart says yes, but my brain says no.

It's sort of like the flood stories. I just finished the book "Indian Legends from the Northern Rockies" by Ella Clark where she repeats traditional stories from the 1800s and there are 10 flood stories from the Nez Perce, Shonshoe, Kutenais, Flatheads, Coeur d'Alenes, etc. Now, of course, I realize that the stories are likely there because of contact with missionaires, etc., but I can't help but think that maybe there was already something in their original beliefs that caused the tribes to latch onto the biblical flood story, remake it into their own, and hold so dearly onto them.

So, evidence? I'm torn. Stories by themselves, probably not. Combined with bigfoot images in very old masks, totem poles, songs, baskets, and rock art...? Maybe.

 

[Correa Neto]

K-poster, never mind, I can use the link to further expose my points!

From your Wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapre):

Kapres are normally described as smoking a big tobacco pipe,

And...

Kapre are also said to play pranks on people, frequently making travellers lost in the mountains or in woods.

Here we have a similarity with two Brazilian mythical humanoids, the Saci-Pererê and the Curupira/Caipora. The Saci smokes a pipe and is a trickster; the Caipora/Curupira is also a trickster, causes people to get lost in the forests and sometimes is decribed as carrying a pipe. Sure, Sacis and Caiporas/Curupiras are anything but tall.

Are these myths evidence of some real humanoid but non-human pipe-smoking trickster? Or they are just psichological responses, ways to "explain" certain things (people getting lost at places they know well)?

If I interpret these myths as evidence for cryptohominids, I am seeing the myths under my biased googles, cherry picking the details that I feel "fit" with my interpretation. Note that when I present them to back a point against their use to back cryptohominids, I am also making an interpretation under my biased googles and cherry-picking details... Welcome to the slippery but fascinating world of myth interpretation!

Yes, I am assuming the Wiki article is correct on the myth decription and we all are aware of Wikipedia's limitations.

 

[Hairy Man]

Are these myths evidence of some real humanoid but non-human pipe-smoking trickster? Or they are just psichological responses, ways to "explain" certain things (people getting lost at places they know well)?

Yes, except....don't forget that a strong influence on interpretation is our own evolving culture. Your above example, in America today, would be interpreted as being an evil cartoonish character, promoted by cigarette companies, to influence our kids to smoke...ie., Joe Camel.