Gun Control is ridiculous

You're asking the wrong question. Who do you think's more likely to kill, the unarmed monkey or the monkey with the Glock?

This is probably fairly pointless....American are very attached to a tradition of being awash with guns. The people with bullet holes in them are worth it for the perceived advantages of mass gun ownership. You may as well try and wean Italians off pasta.
 
I know we have gun crime. But I fail to see how making guns easier to get hold of makes gun crime less likely!

Because of the deterrent factor of criminals not wanting to go up against potentially armed opponents. This has been well documented.

We have enough (too much) gun crime with guns rather difficult to obtain.

Guns don't cause the crime. Do you really think that people say to themselves, "Hey, look, a gun! I think I'll be a criminal"?

Your entire argument is absurd.

Looked to me like it was a question, not an argument. Why don't you try answering it?
 
Don't be obtuse.

I'm the one being obtuse??? You're the one who brought up monkeys!

Or if I have to spell it out without the use of metaphor - who's more likely to kill, the unarmed person or the person with the gun?
There are other ways to kill other than with a gun. Answer the question: Is a law-abiding person getting a gun more, less, or equally likely to kill than someone who gets a gun illegally?
 
No, it's not. Your source is erroneous, due to a huge difference in reporting methodology between the US and UK. In the US, all firearm deaths, with the exception of suicides or obvious accidents, are coded as homicides, regardless of whether they're actually prosecuted as such, or later downgraged to manslaughter or accidental death. In the UK, the status of firearm deaths are re-categorized depending on prosecution and later determination; if a firearm death is originally coded as a homicide, but later determined to be accidental or incidental, it's recoded as such, which does not happen in the US. Although the homicide rate is still lower, it's not nearly as much lower as your source claims. And all other violent crime, including firearm-related violent crime, is higher and increasing. See the links in my previous post.

Well, if I remember correctly even crimes carried out with replica guns are classed as firearm crimes here, so that might rebalance the figures, but say you're right.

What's the best way to reduce those crime levels? If you were John Reid (the Home Secretary), would you a) make guns, and replica guns, harder to get, increase penalties for gun ownership and crack down on the illegal arms trade? Or would you b) loosen gun control, making the street price of firearms lower, increasing the number of guns in the hands of both "law abiding citizens" and criminals, and let the market sort things out?

Which is it? Which one would make the UK a safer place to be? More guns, or fewer guns?
 
Don't be obtuse. Who's more likely to paint a picture? The guy with a paintbrush, or the one without? Or if I have to spell it out without the use of metaphor - who's more likely to kill, the unarmed person or the person with the gun?


Depends on the people you are trying to compare.
 
Personally, I'm happy living in a country where it's damn difficult to get a gun, and where I know I'll almost certainly never even see a firearm, nevertheless be near one fired in anger. How people really feel "safer" when people are able to own deadly weapons and carry them around town "just in case" absolutely boggles my mind. It really does.

You clearly don't know much about your own country, then, since the UK (and Australia) has a higher rate of violent crime, including violent crime involving firearms, than the US does. Murder rate is moderately lower, but all other violent crime is substantially higher, in some cases nearly three times higher. Since handgun ban in... '97 I believe it was, firearm-related violence has almost tripled in the UK. The availability of illegal firearms in the UK has increased almost exponentially, and the street price has dropped by 50-75%. At the same time, violent crime in the US is steadily decreasing, while firearm laws are becoming increasingly liberal across most of the US.

And if you pay special attention to the statistics, you'll see that the reason for the majority of violent crime, and in particular the increase in firearm-related violent crime in the UK and Oz, is the increase in activity by drug-funded gangs. The prime mover of violent crime is the criminal underworld created and funded by drug prohibition. The elimination of one of the most effective tools of self-defense in the UK and Australia has been a major factor in aggravating this increase.

I predict that this problem will continue to grow steadily for the forseeable future unless the UK and Australia make some substantial changes to the legislation. Not just firearm legislation, but drug prohibition legislation as well.
 
I'm the one being obtuse??? You're the one who brought up monkeys!

Take a non-dangerous creature with opposable thumbs. You pick the species. Is it more, or less dangerous now it's holding a loaded weapon? Would you, in the same room as this creature, be safer if you both had guns, or if neither of you had guns?

For me, this isn't about giving guns to nice people, as nice people sometimes to nasty things. This is about whether society (and the individuals in it) are safer, or less safe, with guns or without.

There are other ways to kill other than with a gun.

There certainly are. None quite as effective as a gun though... (else why do you want one "for protection" in the first place?).

Answer the question: Is a law-abiding person getting a gun more, less, or equally likely to kill than someone who gets a gun illegally?

Given a gun and the opportunity and / or will to shoot someone with it, both are equally likely to be able to cause death.

Answer my question about the monkeys. Would you, in the same room as this creature, be safer if you both had guns, or if neither of you had guns?
 
I know we have gun crime. But I fail to see how making guns easier to get hold of makes gun crime less likely! We have enough (too much) gun crime with guns rather difficult to obtain. You think that making it possible for anyone without a criminal record but with criminal intent to walk in to a supermarket and come home with a handgun makes you safer? Really? You think the way for the UK to reduce its gun crime would be to make guns more easily available? That would reduce the number of shootings and killings, would it?

I'll ignore your ridiculous and emotionalist straw man.

You clearly did not read the links. The increase in firearm violence started after they were banned. The increase in availiblity and decrease in price started after they were banned. So clearly the problem isn't legally-owned firearms. Allowing people to protect themselves would, as demonstrated in the US, decreases violent crime. Ending drug prohibition and the prime contributing factor to gang violence would also decrease it. Neither are likely to happen anytime soon.
 
Answer my question about the monkeys. Would you, in the same room as this creature, be safer if you both had guns, or if neither of you had guns?

Kind of a loaded question when in reality neither is not a foreseeable option.
 
Don't be obtuse. Who's more likely to paint a picture? The guy with a paintbrush, or the one without? Or if I have to spell it out without the use of metaphor - who's more likely to kill, the unarmed person or the person with the gun?

As violent crime statistics show, the presence or absence of a firearm does not make a substantial difference in attempted homicides. As Canada has shown, when firearm-related homicides decreased, knife and blunt-object related homicides increased substantially.

So the answer to your question is, you're asking the wrong question.
 
This is probably fairly pointless....American are very attached to a tradition of being awash with guns. The people with bullet holes in them are worth it for the perceived advantages of mass gun ownership. You may as well try and wean Italians off pasta.

Which is why Australia has a violent crime rate double that of the US.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html
 
You clearly don't know much about your own country, then, since the UK (and Australia) has a higher rate of violent crime, including violent crime involving firearms, than the US does. Murder rate is moderately lower, but all other violent crime is substantially higher, in some cases nearly three times higher. Since handgun ban in... '97 I believe it was, firearm-related violence has almost tripled in the UK. The availability of illegal firearms in the UK has increased almost exponentially, and the street price has dropped by 50-75%. At the same time, violent crime in the US is steadily decreasing, while firearm laws are becoming increasingly liberal across most of the US.

And if you pay special attention to the statistics, you'll see that the reason for the majority of violent crime, and in particular the increase in firearm-related violent crime in the UK and Oz, is the increase in activity by drug-funded gangs. The prime mover of violent crime is the criminal underworld created and funded by drug prohibition. The elimination of one of the most effective tools of self-defense in the UK and Australia has been a major factor in aggravating this increase.

I predict that this problem will continue to grow steadily for the forseeable future unless the UK and Australia make some substantial changes to the legislation. Not just firearm legislation, but drug prohibition legislation as well.


I agree with you 100% about the link between violent crime and drug prohibition. We need to radically re-think the drug laws, as undoubtedly these are at least in part responsible for a large chunk of violent crime, especially gun crime.

But I don't agree that more guns equals safer streets. Moving on from murder, let's look at these stats from NationMaster.com:

Rapes per Capita: USA - http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/cri-crime0.301318 per 1,000 people; UK - 0.142172 per 1,000 people .

Assualts per Capita: USA - 7.56923 per 1,000 people; UK - 7.45959 per 1,000 people

Robberies per Capita: USA - 1.38527 per 1,000 people ; UK - 1.57433 per 1,000 people

Burglaries per Capita: USA - 7.09996 per 1,000 people; UK - 13.8321 per 1,000 people

So, essentially, crimes against the person (murders, rapes, assaults, robberies) are either much higher in the US as in the case of rapes and homicides, or about the same (robberies and assaults). These are the crimes that you would expect gun control would likely affect the most, but there is either no difference in the UK/US rates, or the US is much, much worse.

Our burglary rate is shocking, but were we to liberalise guns I'd expect we'd see more burglars going tooled up, in expectation of facing an armed homeowner. I'd be interested to see how many of those homicides in the US were burglars shooting homeowners, thus upgrading the crimes.

I'll ask again - would the British home secretary, given the rising problem with gun crime in the UK, be better off making guns harder, or easier, to obtain?
 
Kind of a loaded question when in reality neither is not a foreseeable option.

Given that a perfect situation will of course never be reached, which one would you like the zoo-keeper to work hardest to implement? You and the monkey both armed, or you and the monkey both unarmed?
 
Well, if I remember correctly even crimes carried out with replica guns are classed as firearm crimes here, so that might rebalance the figures, but say you're right.
They are recorded the same way in the US. So changes in reporting would result in little net difference.
What's the best way to reduce those crime levels? If you were John Reid (the Home Secretary), would you a) make guns, and replica guns, harder to get, increase penalties for gun ownership and crack down on the illegal arms trade? Or would you b) loosen gun control, making the street price of firearms lower, increasing the number of guns in the hands of both "law abiding citizens" and criminals, and let the market sort things out?

Which is it? Which one would make the UK a safer place to be? More guns, or fewer guns?

False dichotomy. In 1997 the UK banned all handguns and severely restricted other firearms sales. Illegal firearm ability rose rapidly and street price decreased equally rapidly. So clearly banning legal firearms does not result in a decrease in the availability of illegal firearms, or affect the street price of illegal firearms. Or if it does, it has an reverse correlation.

Following the ban, violent crime increased, while the ability of law abiding citizens to defend themselves was dramatically reduced, thus contributing to an even greater rise in violent crime.

What I would do to decrease the amount of violent crime in the UK, US, and Australia? Return to all law-abiding citizens their ability to defend themselves; and end drug prohibition, which is the largest contributing factor for violent crime in all three nations.
 
I'll ignore your ridiculous and emotionalist straw man.

Where was the strawman? You're advocating more guns, aren't you?


You clearly did not read the links. The increase in firearm violence started after they were banned. The increase in availiblity and decrease in price started after they were banned. So clearly the problem isn't legally-owned firearms. Allowing people to protect themselves would, as demonstrated in the US, decreases violent crime.

Not true. Rapes and murders are far more frequent in the US, and assaults and robberies are about the same, except that robbers in the UK don't generally carry guns nor the associated risk of shooting the victim dead.


Ending drug prohibition and the prime contributing factor to gang violence would also decrease it. Neither are likely to happen anytime soon.

I agree 100%.
 
So, essentially, crimes against the person (murders, rapes, assaults, robberies) are either much higher in the US as in the case of rapes and homicides, or about the same (robberies and assaults). These are the crimes that you would expect gun control would likely affect the most, but there is either no difference in the UK/US rates, or the US is much, much worse.

I notice your stats don't include the date or source of your numbers (the site you posted is a clearinghouse with inconsistent provenance).

Nope, a combination of out-of-date statistics not taking into account differences and recent changes in reporting. With the exception of homicide, which is moderately lower in the UK and Oz, all other violent crimes are slightly to considerably higher. It also doesn't show trends, which in the UK and Oz are upward, and in the US has been steadily downward. The links I posted had the most recent statistics, adjusted for differences in reporting, including trends.

The US downward trend has been concurrent with an increase in legal firearm availability and a loosening of gun-control regulation. The upward trend in the UK and Oz has been concurrent with the banning of legal handguns, and tightening of gun-control regulation.

According to your claims, banning hanguns should have greatly reduced violent crime, and making hanguns more easily available should have increased it. In fact, what has been demonstrated is precisely the opposite.
 
They are recorded the same way in the US. So changes in reporting would result in little net difference.

Fair enough.


False dichotomy.
It's a true dichotomy. We can have more gun control, and make guns harder to get, or we can have less gun control and make guns easier to get.

To take this to an extreme - are we safer with no guns, or lots of guns? Which should the government work towards? I passionately believe that fewer guns are better than lots of guns, and no guns at all should be the aim (though unreachable in practice, of course).

In 1997 the UK banned all handguns and severely restricted other firearms sales. Illegal firearm ability rose rapidly and street price decreased equally rapidly. So clearly banning legal firearms does not result in a decrease in the availability of illegal firearms, or affect the street price of illegal firearms. Or if it does, it has an reverse correlation.
Of course "illegal firearm activity" rose rapidly - there were suddenly lots of legally owned weapons that became "illegal" overnight. I imagine the sudden glut of guns onto the black market all at once, guns for which there was no longer any other method of sale, brought the price down. But what happens if we liberalise again? Does the price and number of guns increase, or decrease?

Following the ban, violent crime increased, while the ability of law abiding citizens to defend themselves was dramatically reduced, thus contributing to an even greater rise in violent crime.
Though still not to levels seen in the US, where gun ownership is widespread. So this is a moot point. You'll also note that "self-defense" is pretty much a crime in this country too, and if you'd shot someone even before the handgun ban you'd be in serious trouble, even if the person in question was burgling your house. Look up Tony Martin, owner of a (once) legally owned shotgun who murdered a 16 year old kid burgling his house.

According to The Gun-Control Network:

Recently it has been claimed that gun crime has risen three-fold since 1996, the year before the post-Dunblane handgun ban was introduced. Ross Clark in an opinion piece in The Times (14 March) quoted a figure of 7,753 gun crimes in 1996 rising to 24,094 in 2003-04. Any careful check would have revealed that the correct figure for all gun crime in 1996 was 13,876. The mistake is not even explained by the exclusion of airgun incidents from the earlier but not the later total. Furthermore, this was not a one-off. Graham Lane, writing to the Sunday Herald letters page (12 March), asked for an explanation for the “massive threefold increase in armed crime and murder by use of firearms since this ban.” GCN believes that it is no coincidence that Clark and Lane used similar exaggerations in pieces in which they both argued for a reversal of the handgun ban. Such incorrect statistics ought to have been challenged before publication.


Whilst gun crime has risen in England and Wales since 1996 the official figures reveal that this is largely owing to big increases in the number of incidents involving airguns, imitation guns and other weapons such as paintball guns for which there are few controls. Total gun crime, and handgun crime in particular, has fallen significantly in Scotland since the mid-1990s. In England and Wales handgun crime has fallen for the last two years, as has the total number of crimes, if those involving airguns and imitation guns are excluded.


The lazy or deliberate use of incorrect statistics has contributed to a situation in which too many journalists automatically describe gun crime in Britain as “rocketing out of control”. The correct statistics show that this is not the case.



What I would do to decrease the amount of violent crime in the UK, US, and Australia? Return to all law-abiding citizens their ability to defend themselves; and end drug prohibition, which is the largest contributing factor for violent crime in all three nations.
I'd end drug prohibition too. But you honestly think allowing that slack-jawed yokel at the end of your street who hates your kids, or the boy-racer in his BMW who cuts you up at the lights, or the drunk guy in the bar who's pint you spilled to have access to firearms makes you safer? Or that having a gun in your home makes your kids safer?

I'll say it again - you're in a room with an angry man. Would you rather both be armed, or neither of you be armed? What's "safer"? Which situation is more likely to result in your death, or wounding?


ETA - Quote and Statistics on the "Rising Crime" figures
 
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I'm pro-guns myself. I want a firearm, I want access to firearms (and I have no criminal record and no history of violence, so I don't see why I shouldn't have it), and I don't see why I should have that access taken away. I have done no wrong, and I will never do no wrong. I know how to handle a firearm. I know how to be safe. I know how to be cautious.

However, if that access is taken away from me, and criminals still have access to guns, then you aren't creating a situation where you have two unarmed men in a room. You have one armed convict and one unarmed civilian. I feel safer being armed in that situation (though I'd rather be out of the room altogether!)

You cannot take guns out of the hands of criminals in the U.S. It isn't just the idea of guns being part of our culture, on the part of heirlooms (my grandmother keeps her husband's M1911-A1 in memory of him), but also as part of our heritage; but also the fact that the U.S. is absolutely saturated with firearms. If you ban firearms, you also have to recall all of the firearms to keep them out of the black market, to keep them out of the hands of the common criminal. And that's almost impossible!

That's a lot of firearms you have to recall. I don't think I can emphasize this enough. I believe that the M1911-A1 handgun went up to, like, 100 million firearms made, even though many ended up overseas. That's a lot of guns! There's 300 million people in the U.S. I think I can safely say that the number of firearms available in the U.S. surpasses the population in multiples. It's also very difficult to trace those firearms after they've been resold, and you can bet that if you pass a law that demands a recall of those firearms, you'd end up with a lot of stolen firearms.

So, in the end, this is what I think: Banning firearm does not protect the average civilian, it disarms them. It does not stop the criminal, but it keeps them armed.

I live in Corpus Christ, Texas currently. I just discovered that a vast majority of people here walk around armed, with a concealed weapon. Far more than I originally thought; yet I feel just as safe knowing that than when I didn't. I don't feel like my life is in jeapordy at any moment. I don't feel like people are suddenly going to go psycho and shoot me up just because they touched some sort of "Killing Disease" that apparently some people think that firearms are mass-produced with.

And, furthermore, humans aren't monkeys. We're primates, maybe, but we're also capable of making decisions and judgement calls. Sometimes they're faulty, but I do not see people walking around shooting everyone else because of bad judgement calls. It happens at times, but I find that in the majority of shootings, the shooters had reasons to be sure that NO ONE COULD FIRE BACK.

For example: Almost ALL (if not all) school shootings happen on "guns free zones". In a local incident here in Corpus, someone walked into a resteraunt and emptied his firearm into the place, killing many people. He could have killed less if there was return fire, but the resteraunt was a "guns free" zone.

I don't see any way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and the fact is we do try. There's a reason why you have to undergo a background check before you're sold a firearm here. But you can still get firearms from other sources, and that will always be true as long as there is a single handgun in the black market. And, there will ALWAYS be at least one. Once a weapon is made, it's out there; it's circulated; and it's darn hard to recall once it's resold.

Now, this doesn't mean that I think that all gun control policies are bad. Singapore has a pretty good gun control policy, but they aren't saturated with firearms. They put a VERY strict control on it from the very beginning, and they are a small country with a relatively small population (4 million people, I believe). I know this as I have a friend in the Singapore military, and she gave me a pretty good argument as to why gun control works in Singapore. They're very careful about keeping firearms out, and are very strict in controlling imported goods to make sure no one's smuggling them into it. They also impose strict controls on the firearms and ammunition handed out to police and soldiers, ensuring that they have a set number of bullets at all times, to be checked routinely. If a single fire has been shot without due cause, then there will be a severe investigation. However, these very strict limitations just wouldn't work on the U.S.; once you saturate a country with weapons, it's extremely hard to take them out, especially if you don't have a good paper trail to follow.

Hmm... I'm not sure what the main argument here is, actually. I just realized that it was about Gun Control, but what kind of Gun Control? I think that background checks and the like are a good way to do business, and that you shouldn't be allowed to have every weapon on the books. Pump-action shotguns, pistols, and hunting rifles are a-okay by me, but I certainly don't see the need for assault/battle rifles, .50 BMGs, and machineguns. :)
 
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It's a true dichotomy. We can have more gun control, and make guns harder to get, or we can have less gun control and make guns easier to get.

Really?

Or we can keep the status quo. You left that option out. :)

I'd also add that there's different kinds of control.
 
I'll say it again - you're in a room with an angry man. Would you rather both be armed, or neither of you be armed? What's "safer"? Which situation is more likely to result in your death, or wounding?

If I'm in a room with an angry man, and we're both unarmed, then I wouldn't feel safe if he was larger and more muscular than me. Sure, I may practice some krav maga, but I'm sure that an experienced brawler could take me on no problem.

There's a famous quote... I forget the wording, so I'm definitely paraphrasing here:

"Those who are against weapons development are not truly for a lessening of violence, but instead for a return to the brutish time where the strong were superior to the meek, where things were decided by brute strength alone".

The fact is, if we're both armed with a firearm, then we're both equal. Sure, a man can be more skilled with a firearm than another man, but at the heart of it I actually have a chance. If he's unarmed, and superior in strength and experience than me, then I don't have any chance! Even running away isn't always an option.

Here's another one: Three criminals come at you. They have your way blocked (say, in an alleyway). Would you feel safer if you were armed for a handgun or unarmed? Assuming that they are armed with the equivalent weapon that you're armed with. Personally, I imagine them as far more likely to scatter once I pull out my handgun. It might even give me a chance to escape. Can you say the same thing about being unarmed? The fact is that if they intend to kill you, you'll want to fight for your life. But I feel that you're far less likely to survive in unarmed combat than in armed combat in that situation. And the fact is, many people attack (when they mean to do serious harm) in numbers, especially gang members.

Now if you take a drunken man, I don't think that his first impulse is to unlock his firearms cabinet (where firearms are often kept) and pull out his guns. I doubt he'd even have the coordination to do that. Or the memory. But it depends on the drunken man and how he keeps his firearms.

I think that another issue here is safety training. Quite frankly, a man that is drunk with decent safety training is less likely to be a danger than a man that is drunk with no decent safety training. The fact is that a lot of Americans possess firearms without having been instilled the actual respect that is required for them.
 
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