Can you divine electricity lines with copper rods?

Number Six

JREF Kid
Number Six
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Messages
5,016
It sounds bogus on the surface to me but I don't know much about the topic. Someone says he knows someone that can divine electricity lines buried underground by holding copper rods. Any thoughts on this? What can I say back to this person other than "Apply for the challenge." I mean, I may say that eventually but I'd like to try to have a back and forth exchange on the topic before getting to that point.
 
All power lines produce EM fields, but it takes a high tension transmission line to produce a field so strong that it can be detected by humans. I wouldn't think an underground line would have a high enough voltage to be detected. It certainily wouldn't effect a copper rod, that would be a prop in the manner of a dowsing rod.
 
Number Six said:
It sounds bogus on the surface to me but I don't know much about the topic. Someone says he knows someone that can divine electricity lines buried underground by holding copper rods. Any thoughts on this? What can I say back to this person other than "Apply for the challenge." I mean, I may say that eventually but I'd like to try to have a back and forth exchange on the topic before getting to that point.
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That would sound cool on the application form.

Name: "Someone who is said to be known by someone"
 
I'd like a critque of this please. This person sounds sincere and I'm not even positive that this couldn't be true because I don't know very much personally about this area but it is setting off my BS meter. Also, the magnetic anomolies part sounds fishy. He insist's it all has a natural explanation though, which is why he says it wouldn't qualify for the JREF prize.


I've done it myself and seen others do it for years. The most common thing I seen used is bent welding rods or something similar. If you have for example a buried sewer line and approach it at a perpendicular, the rods will cross when you approach the boundary of the trench it was placed into. Approach the buried trench from the other side, same thing. Apparently there are magnetic anomolies created by the change in compaction/densities where the utility is buried. Usually electric lines are over head, so haven't tried it with buried electric, mostly sewer or water. The larger the conduit/trench, the easier to detect. We often do it to verify Miss Utility markings. I do environmental consulting work and we're using a drill rig or a Geoprobe and really don't want to hit anything. I depend on Miss Utility markings but don't mind a confirmation via divining or whatever you call that.
 
Number Six said:
I'd like a critque of this please. This person sounds sincere and I'm not even positive that this couldn't be true because I don't know very much personally about this area but it is setting off my BS meter. Also, the magnetic anomolies part sounds fishy. He insist's it all has a natural explanation though, which is why he says it wouldn't qualify for the JREF prize.
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There's lots of info already on this site, or you can Google "dowsing" and "ideomotor effect." The magnetic anomolies stuff is just mumbo-jumbo, though your friend may be sincere. What you're describing is simply garden-variety dowsing.
 
Dumb All Over said:
What you describe is nothing more than dowsing. Tell your friend he does qualify. Tell him he can win the million. Tell him it doesn't matter whether he thinks his "natural explanation" qualifies or not. It does. Have him apply.
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Buckaroo said:
Dang it, DAO beat me to it.
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I second Buckaroo's post.

If in doubt about the qualification for the Challenge, JREF Kid, inquire at Jeff Wagg: challenge@randi.org
 
Number Six said:
I do environmental consulting work and we're using a drill rig or a Geoprobe and really don't want to hit anything. I depend on Miss Utility markings but don't mind a confirmation via divining or whatever you call that.
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Please could you let us know where your friend works so that anyone in the vicinity knows to take out extra life insurance cover.

Also, do the firms that are paying this buffoon a consultation fee know that he is "confirming" the location of buried utility cables/pipes using dowsing? If not, then I suggest it is your moral duty to inform them before his idiotic practices harm someone.
 
I doubt this is what your contact is talking about, but this is a neat story: some underground lines are quite powerful: check out http://www.mit.edu/afs/net.mit.edu/user/tytso/archive/high-power. These should produce easily-measureable magnetic fields; it's not impossible that they produce a 60Hz hum. Nothing paranormal about detecting fields or sounds.

Household lines are another story; they're almost certainly undetectable to humans, but they have the standard "dowsing target" property of being very common and generally well-clued on the surface. There are manholes and access ports, and you're pretty well guaranteed to find underground lines anywhere there aren't overhead ones. I'm neither a plumber nor a psychic, but I bet I could dowse out any number of gas lines, sewers, and storm drains in my neighborhood.

The "experiment" you described illustrates exactly the problem with the bent-welding-rods business: you said "the rods swing when I pass over the trench", and you think that the swinging is caused by the thing buried in the trench. The rods really did swing, I have no doubt. But they swung (and this has been demonstrated a thousand times) when you *thought they ought to swing*. Brain thinks about passing over trench; brain thinks about buried sewer line; brain thinks about rod swinging; brain makes hand muscles tense up; rod swings. It's called the "ideomotor effect".

Randi has tested dozens of dowsers. Tell them what they're dowsing for ("Can you detect this pipe, right here?") and the rods will swing every time. Tell them to read facial clues ("One of these ten identical trenches contains a pipe; I'll unconsciously bite my lip when you get near it. Can you find it?") and they'll do pretty well, via the "Clever Hans" effect---it doesn't require any intention to cheat or anything, it's just normal brain behavior. Tell them to find a double-blinded target ("One of these ten identical trenches contains a pipe; neither of us knows which one. You make your guess, then we'll both check the answer.") and the rod's behavior is indistinguishable from random guessing.

Have you ever had the divining rods *disagree* with what you expected? "The DPW says there's a pipe here, but I'm not getting a signal on the rods. Hey, the rods were right!" (All eight types of agreement/disagreement are important: signal/expect-pipe/find-pipe, signal/expect-pipe/don't-find-pipe, and so on through no-signal/don't-expect-pipe/don't-find-pipe.)
 
Just to be clear, I don't know this guy personally but rather I've talked with him on a message board so it'll be hard to get him to follow up. As near as I can tell at this point his postion is "It happens, I've seen it, and it's natural so it's not eligible for the JREF prize anyway" and my guess is that that won't change.
 
Number Six said:
Just to be clear, I don't know this guy personally but rather I've talked with him on a message board so it'll be hard to get him to follow up. As near as I can tell at this point his postion is "It happens, I've seen it, and it's natural so it's not eligible for the JREF prize anyway" and my guess is that that won't change.
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You're probably right about that. Try anyway, please.

(I'm sorry to have called you by your custom title "JREF Kid", I meant to address you as "Number Six". Please accept my apology.)
 
Number Six said:
Just to be clear, I don't know this guy personally but rather I've talked with him on a message board so it'll be hard to get him to follow up. As near as I can tell at this point his postion is "It happens, I've seen it, and it's natural so it's not eligible for the JREF prize anyway" and my guess is that that won't change.
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Ask him if he could use a quick million bucks. And tell him the people here on this JREF thread think it qualifies.
 
Number Six said:
Just to be clear, I don't know this guy personally but rather I've talked with him on a message board so it'll be hard to get him to follow up. As near as I can tell at this point his postion is "It happens, I've seen it, and it's natural so it's not eligible for the JREF prize anyway" and my guess is that that won't change.
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Have your buddy check out the Challenge FAQ, section 2.3 at: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.3 -- note that the very first item listed as being "paranormal by definition" is dowsing.

So, the fact that your friend's position is that it is natural and does happen does not[/i[ make dowsing ineligible for the Challenge. Even if it is natural and does happen, JREF's position is that this is not the case, and they will pony up $1 Million to anyone who proves them wrong.

Please make sure that your buddy, if he does express interest in this, reads the Challenge FAQ and also the Challenge Application at http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. This is super hella-important.

Your friend is going to need to demonstrate that the ideomotor effect is not happening; to whit, that:

1) he is not receiving subconscious cues -- from, for example, depressions in the ground, access portholes, reactions of other people, etc.

2) he is not reacting to outright knowledge -- in other words, that he isn't reacting because he knows where the target is.

The test is going to have to be blinded: neither he nor anyone near him (his observers) while he is conducting his trials can know where the target object is, and it has to be hidden in such a way as there are no clues as to where it's at (obviously, a patch of disturbed ground would be a clue). In other words, the people who set up the test can't be anywhere around.

Please give your friend this example protocol. I realize it's very lengthy, but this is the kind of detailed protocol he will need to present to and/or develop with JREF. Plus, he should try this out a couple of times with his friends, just to make sure he can do it under controlled conditions:

Required materials:
- one example of target material (e.g., a silver coin, a chunk of metal, a car battery, whatever)
- ten opaque containers, preferably round, numbered 1-10, that can cover the target material completely without touching it
- a ten-sided die (available from your local gaming store and/or geek)
- two teams: one is your buddy, an observer sympathetic to him, and a skeptical observer. The other team consists of two observers, one sympathetic, one skeptical. The skeptical person will be responsible for all setup; the sympthetic observer is there to make sure the skeptic isn't engaging in any shenanigans.
- three locations out of sight and sound from each other: one is the test site, and the other two are the staging areas for your buddy and his team, and the team of people who set up the test.
- means of communication between the two. Preferably walkie-talkies with a "beep" function (in other words, no talking).
- paper and pencils.

Pre-test review:
- your buddy goes over the test site until he is satisfied that there is nothing nearby that could interfere with the test.

"Open trials" (or "calibration runs")
- the two teams retire to their respective staging area. Buddy team "beeps" setup team. The setup team goes to the test site. The skeptical observer rolls the 10-sider to get a number. The skeptical observer then sets up the ten containers and puts the target item under the indicated container. He/she places the die on top of that container. The sympathetic observer writes down the trial number and container number.
- the setup team retires to its staging area, then "beeps" the buddy team. The buddy team comes to the test site and the buddy locates the target item using his dowsing equipment, without touching or disturbing the containers. An observer (doesn't matter which) writes down the trial number and the indicated container number.
- the buddy team retires to its staging area, then "beeps" the setup team. The setup team returns to the test site, picks up all of the containers and the test item, and then repeats the process of rolling the die, placing the containers, etc. From this point on, the process is merely iterative: ten trials are completed in this manner.
- once all ten trials are complete, both teams meet and compare their written results.

The purpose of the "open trials" are to allow your buddy the opportunity to be sure that nothing's interfering, that his equipment is working, and that everything is cool. If that's the case, then we continue to the closed, or blinded trials, which operate exactly as the open trials did, except that the observer team takes the die with them instead of leaving it on the indicated container.

For a JREF test, things will probably be slightly tighter -- for example, there will probably be videocameras-a-go-go for post-test review, so that both sides can be assured that no cheating took place. And mind you that this is only an example protocol. It can usually be modified to suit any particulars of the claimed ability (although if your friend only claims to be able to find buried electrical cables, be aware that setting up a properly controlled test will be more complicated -- not impossible, just involved).

If your buddy does not want to deal with JREF, suggest highly that he contact a local skeptics' group. They'll probably be willing to test him according to a protocol like the one I outlined above. They may or may not be offering any prize money, but I'll bet they'll be able to get the Press involved, so it can still be pretty cool. : )
 
Number Six said:
I'd like a critque of this please. This person sounds sincere and I'm not even positive that this couldn't be true because I don't know very much personally about this area but it is setting off my BS meter. Also, the magnetic anomolies part sounds fishy. He insist's it all has a natural explanation though, which is why he says it wouldn't qualify for the JREF prize.
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The electricity coupled to metal rods (it won't matter what kind of metal) from an underground power-line is not strong enough to be felt by a human. It will require sensitive instruments to detect. There is a good reason for this: If power-lines were not made so that the energy coupled to random metal objects on the surface is very low, endless problems would ensue. The power-line would be lossy, and people would complain about their cars and equipment malfunctioning, being heated, etc. There would also be a health issue.

So, if there is a natural explanation, it is unknown to science. In other words, it should qualify for the JREF prize.


I've done it myself and seen others do it for years. The most common thing I seen used is bent welding rods or something similar. If you have for example a buried sewer line and approach it at a perpendicular, the rods will cross when you approach the boundary of the trench it was placed into. Approach the buried trench from the other side, same thing. Apparently there are magnetic anomolies created by the change in compaction/densities where the utility is buried.
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No, there are not. ... Well, there are, and you can detect them with sensitive magnetometers, but not by holding metal wires in your hands. Notice that in all these cases, you already know where the sewer line is. You are reacting subconsciously to this knowledge, and the idiomotor effect makes the wires move.

Hans
 
Number Six said:
Just to be clear, I don't know this guy personally but rather I've talked with him on a message board so it'll be hard to get him to follow up. As near as I can tell at this point his postion is "It happens, I've seen it, and it's natural so it's not eligible for the JREF prize anyway" and my guess is that that won't change.
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That is just evasion. Don't tell me he wouldn't reach for a million bucks if he thought he could get them. Deep down he knows he'll fail the blinded test.

Mvh Hans
 
Number Six said:
We often do it to verify Miss Utility markings. I do environmental consulting work and we're using a drill rig or a Geoprobe and really don't want to hit anything. I depend on Miss Utility markings but don't mind a confirmation via divining or whatever you call that.
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My bolding. So he knows exactly where things are and, amazingly, he is able to find them. Classic unblinded dowsing.
 
The discussion of the 'science' of this claim is absolutely fascinating. Since the actual person with the ability...

  • Someone says he knows someone that can divine electricity lines buried underground by holding copper rods.
  • translation: my mother's cousin's second uncle's dog sez...

isn't seriously contending for the challenge I suggest this thread be moved to the Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology section so that the real 'science' behind this idea can be further discussed.

Gene
 
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