Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[DOC]

Let me try to clear up this whole Seperation of Church and state subject. Dr. Kennedy says that liberals and others have completely misrepresented the intent of the letter. The Danbury Baptist Assoc. had written to Jefferson and expressed worry about the increasing power of the relatively "new" Federal Government. Remember the power of the King of England over the church.

Well Jefferson wrote back, according to Kennedy, to simply calm the fears of the association. Jefferson who, by the way, was out of the country when the Bill of Rights was created and had nothing to do with them, assured the association that he agreed with what the people had created. That Congress should make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do. It has nothing to do with what the Church can and can't do -- only Congress.

Kennedy goes on to say that the wall metaphor actually first came from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, who talked about "erecting a wall around the garden of the church to protect it". And Jefferson used this same metaphor to demonstrate his desire to keep the Government off the backs of the Churches.

Once again the whole purpose of the admendment was to keep another Church of England from happening, and not to restrict the Churches.
___________

I, also find a sentence in the last paragraph of Jefferson's letter interesting. He says " I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man...

 

[Ducky]

Let me try to clear up this whole Seperation of Church and state subject. Dr. Kennedy says that liberals and others have completely misrepresented the intent of the letter. The Danbury Baptist Assoc. had written to Jefferson and expressed worry about the increasing power of the relatively "new" Federal Government. Remember the power of the King of England over the church.

Well Jefferson wrote back, according to Kennedy, to simply calm the fears of the association. Jefferson who, by the way, was out of the country when the Bill of Rights was created and had nothing to do with them, assured the association that he agreed with what the people had created. That Congress should make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do. It has nothing to do with what the Church can and can't -- only Congress.

Once again the whole purpose of the admendment was to keep another Church of England from happening, and not to restrict the Church.
___________

I, also find a sentence in the last paragraph of Jefferson's letter interesting. He says " I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man...

Did you read any of the quotes I posted at all? Have you read any of the source documents they came from?

 

[DOC]

Did you read any of the quotes I posted at all? Have you read any of the source documents they came from?

Yes, I did, but I feel Jefferson's actions like going to church in the Rotunda Building of Congress every Sunday for 7 years while president should speak louder. Also, the sentence of Jefferson, I posted in the last paragraph of my post 2 posts ago doesn't sound like a cold-hearted deist to me. But what Jefferson's beliefs about God were are secondary to my point about the whole misrepresentation by certain groups of the wall metaphor (and the seperation of church and state).

 

[Ducky]

Yes, I did, but I feel Jefferson's actions like going to church in the Rotunda Building of Congress every Sunday for 7 years while president should speak louder. Also, the sentence of Jefferson, I posted in the last paragraph of my post 2 posts ago doesn't sound like a cold-hearted deist to me. But what Jefferson's beliefs about God were are secondary to my point about the whole misrepresentation by certain groups of the wall metaphor (and the seperation of church and state).

Could you cite an actual source for the rotunda activities?

As for the "wall" metaphor, what is ambiguous about this quote:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Bolding mine.

 

[brodski]

Let me try to clear up this whole Seperation of Church and state subject. Dr. Kennedy says that liberals and others have completely misrepresented the intent of the letter. The Danbury Baptist Assoc. had written to Jefferson and expressed worry about the increasing power of the relatively "new" Federal Government. Remember the power of the King of England over the church.

Well Jefferson wrote back, according to Kennedy, to simply calm the fears of the association. Jefferson who, by the way, was out of the country when the Bill of Rights was created and had nothing to do with them, assured the association that he agreed with what the people had created. That Congress should make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do. It has nothing to do with what the Church can and can't do -- only Congress.

Kennedy goes on to say that the wall metaphor actually first came from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, who talked about "erecting a wall around the garden of the church to protect it". And Jefferson used this same metaphor to demonstrate his desire to keep the Government off the backs of the Churches.

Once again the whole purpose of the admendment was to keep another Church of England from happening, and not to restrict the Churches.
___________

I, also find a sentence in the last paragraph of Jefferson's letter interesting. He says " I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man...

Can you name these restrictions on churches? As far as I can see Churches are free to practice as they like, just so long as they don't rely on public funds. Which is fine, if you don't want the government telling Churches how they should operate, don't ask the government to pay for church activity.

 

[Zep]

From Kennedy's website:

"Kennedy was one of the leaders of a schism that created the conservative Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) 30 years ago. In addition to his mega-church and international broadcast ministry and political operations, ...

Response: Never heard of him here. And if he did try to influence our politics, please rearrange the following words into a well-known phrase or saying -

OFF

PISS

 

[DOC]

I'm curious too. I think Jefferson's ideas on the subject are not well or widely understood, frankly - and in that sense I suppose one could say there is misinformation circulating - but I'm not sure DOC is the right person to shed any light.

Hopefully post #61 can shed some light on the misinformation.

 

[Upchurch]

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do. It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do. It has nothing to do with what the Church can and can't do -- only Congress.

What does the ACLU, liberals, etc. say churches can't do?

 

[DOC]

To Fowlsound, Brodski, and Upchurch, I'll get to your latest posts when I get the time.

 

[Ladewig]

What does the ACLU, liberals, etc. say churches can't do?

I don't know about the ACLU, but the IRS does have a prohibition for churches. Specifically, a church may not retain its tax-exempt status if it endorses a specific candidate for office. They may make endorsements of specific issues (e.g. "please for vote for pro-life candidates" "please vote for anti-death-penalty candidates") but they may not mention names.

Personally, I have no problem with such a restriction. I have no idea if this is the issue that DOC is referring to.


As for school prayer, if a group of students wants to gather in the lunchroom or on the playground to say prayers, then I couldn't care less. On the other hand, I'm rather happy that neither teachers nor students can grab the microphone at official school functions and force others to listen to their prayers.

 

[Tricky]

Can you name these restrictions on churches? As far as I can see Churches are free to practice as they like, just so long as they don't rely on public funds. Which is fine, if you don't want the government telling Churches how they should operate, don't ask the government to pay for church activity.

Frankly, I don't think churches should be offered any servicies provided by the government since they don't pay taxes.

 

[Ladewig]

And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around

DOC, I fear that your knowledge about what the ACLU does may be a bit one-sided. For instance, did you know that when a city in Virginia wanted to prohibit a church from performing baptisms in a river that runs through a public park, the ACLU defended the church's right to use the park?

Here is a story about the ACLU defending a student who distributed candy canes with religious messages. The goal of the ACLU is not to attack churches - the goal is to defend civil liberties, including free speech.

My advice: make sure you get your news and information from more than one source. That is the best way to avoid bias.

 

[Upchurch]

At the risk of tossing some straw around and while we're waiting, what are the likely issues DOC could bring up?

1. No prayer in public school
2. Nativity scenes removed from public land
3. Ten Commandment displays removed from court houses
4. Promotion of gay marriage (maybe)

 

[ceo_esq]

Kennedy goes on to say that the wall metaphor actually first came from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, who talked about "erecting a wall around the garden of the church to protect it".

Kennedy is wrong, though. Driesbach devotes an entire chapter of Thomas Jefferson and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State to tracing the history of the metaphor, and concludes that early uses of it go back at least as far as Martin Luther. He even suggests that Jefferson was probably unaware of Roger Williams' use of it, but would have been more likely to have read the Anglican theologian Richard Hooker, who in the 1590s (half a century before Williams) wrote:

[There are those who hold] that Bishops may not meddle with the affairs of the commonwealth because they are governors of another corporation, which is the Church, nor Kings, with making laws for the Church because they have government not of this corporation, but of another divided from it, the Commonwealth, and the walls of separation between these two must forever be upheld.

 

[fuelair]

I apologise for saying/implying DOC was a hit and runner. Only.

 

[blutoski]

Let me try to clear up this whole Seperation of Church and state subject. Dr. Kennedy says that liberals and others have completely misrepresented the intent of the letter. The Danbury Baptist Assoc. had written to Jefferson and expressed worry about the increasing power of the relatively "new" Federal Government. Remember the power of the King of England over the church.

Well Jefferson wrote back, according to Kennedy, to simply calm the fears of the association. Jefferson who, by the way, was out of the country when the Bill of Rights was created and had nothing to do with them, assured the association that he agreed with what the people had created. That Congress should make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Jefferson had 'nothing to do with' the Amendments. He had collaborated and corresponded with Madison for decades, and collaborated on the Federalist papers under the same nom de plume (Publius), making similar arguments. Their views were converged over time, and the consulted on many issues. They had both argued for such a statement in both the Articles and in the original constitution, but were willing to withdraw these in order to assure ratification of states that already had state religions. For example, Pennsylvania was the "Quaker state", and would certainly have opted out of the Union without assurances that they could continue their practice of persecuting religious minorities.

Now notice the 1st Admendment "only" says what "Congress" can't do.

Sort of. It was a clarification regarding "freedom of conscience". It was reiterating that the government could not interfere with the people's freedom of conscience, one form of which was their freedom of religious belief. This is where the 'neighbour' quote comes from: many founders felt that government had no role in dictating religion, including Jefferson.

The restriction to the federal Congress was a bone tossed to the states - some of which had state religions. This was a battle the Federalists were willing to fight another day, and indeed, the Supreme Court later ruled that freedom of conscience was a right that no level of government could impede upon. State religions were abolished on this ground. The principle was that since Congress is the second-highest power in the US (after the citizen), if Congress does not have the power to impede a citizen's right, then no state has such a power, either.

So: be careful what you wish for... if you're saying that states have the right to powers forbidden by the First Amendment, then you're saying states have the right to limit free speech, too. (note: this was a debate prior to the civil war, as many states censored and criminalized anti-slavery writings, explaining that the First Amendment only limits Congress - this issue was settled in favour of the citizen's right to freedom of conscience taking priority over the government's powers of criminalization.)

It says nothing about what the "church" can't do. And yet groups (liberals, ACLU, etc.) have completely turned this around to say what the Church can and can not do.

********. Maybe they say what churches can/cannot do while suckling on the taxpayer's teat but otherwise, the ACLU has made itself just as unpopular among atheists by defending freedom of religion, no matter how repulsive. Fred Phelps has made a fortune off the First Amendment, and the ACLU has had to get his six.

Kennedy goes on to say that the wall metaphor actually first came from Roger Williams, the founder of the Baptist Church in America, who talked about "erecting a wall around the garden of the church to protect it". And Jefferson used this same metaphor to demonstrate his desire to keep the Government off the backs of the Churches.

Once again the whole purpose of the admendment was to keep another Church of England from happening, and not to restrict the Churches.

Agreed. It was to prevent the establishment of a state-sanctioned, or state-funded church. Jefferson wanted the government to get off the backs of people, and that this would be effected by a policy of aloofness: neither obstructing nor encouraging churches. Unless another citizen's rights were being threatened, in which case, the government had an obligation to interfere. This is pretty much the modern interpretation, too.

I, also find a sentence in the last paragraph of Jefferson's letter interesting. He says " I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man...

Well, he was a politician... sucking up to constituents is a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.

 

[RandFan]

Source 1:

That's just a few.

Also, you should read up on the Jefferson Bible:

Thanks Fowl.

 

[Ladewig]

Looks like DOC is having a hard time finding his or her way back to our forum.

Argumentius Interuptus. I hate it when that happens.

 

[Upchurch]

Looks like DOC is having a hard time finding his or her way back to our forum.

Argumentius Interuptus. I hate it when that happens.

There is a woman at my wife's office who gets into political/religious arguments with my wife from time to time. Whenever my wife stumps her, she has to go talk to her minister before she can answer.

I'm not saying that is the case with DOC. ...well, not saying that is necessarily the case with DOC.

 

[wahrheit]

Looks like DOC is having a hard time finding his or her way back to our forum.

Argumentius Interuptus. I hate it when that happens.

Would you please demonstrate more respect to honorable DOC. He is a busy person! He will get back to us mortals as soon as "His" time permits.

Well my time is limited ... *snip*

To Fowlsound, Brodski, and Upchurch, I'll get to your latest posts when I get the time.